Kelly Noah: 00:00:00.000
And then the other part is to see if there’s a puzzle that you’re trying to solve. Having a gifted label or another word might unlock Google search terms and communities to plug into things you didn’t know had a name. And you talk about signposts, right? A signpost doesn’t just tell you where to go. It gives you the reassurance that somebody else has been there and knows where they are. [music]

Gretchen Roe: 00:00:27.207
Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to The Demme Learning Show. This is Gretchen Roe and I am so delighted to have the opportunity to finally have this conversation with my friend Kelly Sullivan Noah. We have known each other now for over a year. We met at the Mache Homeschool Conference in Minnesota last year, and it has taken us until now to facilitate this conversation, and that’s not on Kelly’s part, that’s on my part. But I have to tell you, this is going to be an absolutely insightful conversation. She teaches me something every time we have a conversation. And I think that you will find that the conversation we have today about gifted and talented kids is going to be life-changing for those of you who are watching and attending and those of you who will be listening to our conversation after the fact.

Kelly Noah: 00:01:20.390
Well, Gretchen, I’m having so much fun getting to know you more and learning from all of the things that you’ve learned from families over the years. I’m Kelly Sullivan. Noah. I live in Minnesota. My husband and I both work full-time in the financial industry and we homeschool our two boys. They’re 13 and 11 now, but we’ve been doing it since they were peanuts, and it’s a lot of fun.

Gretchen Roe: 00:01:41.944
And I asked Kelly a little bit if she could give me some insight into how they work both full-time and homeschool their children because I know that will be a question from our audience. So, Kelly, tell me how the homeschooling journey works in your family.

Kelly Noah: 00:01:58.358
That’s a great question. And like anything else, it’s a patchwork, and it changes over time. But fortunately, my husband and I have both been able to set up hours where we’re focused at work during the day and have times that we’re at home working with the kids. So for example, right now my kids come to work with me one day a week, and I leave them at home two days a week, and I work from home with them two days a week. So it’s been a patchwork of who’s working from home, hiring some part-time help, and doing the juggle. It’s a lot of fun.

Gretchen Roe: 00:02:30.858
So, Kelly, tell me you and I made acquaintance of each other because of the Minnesota chapter of Choices. So can you tell me about that? Tell me how we made this acquaintance and then I have some more questions about that.

Kelly Noah: 00:02:48.866
Absolutely. So when our kids were younger and we knew they were a little bit different and we’d started homeschooling, I was finding a lot of connections over homeschooling. But then when we started talking curriculum or what the kids were doing, it started to get really awkward. So I talked to another mom I know whose child is now a rocket scientist, a real one, and said, “Where do I find some other families that I can talk to in a different way?” And she said, “You need MCGT.” I said, “Who?” So most states have a robust gifted educator network, right? The teachers and schools come together, talk about gifted kids. Some states like Minnesota also have a gifted parent network that they can connect through. So Minnesota has had since 1956 a nonprofit that just supports families with gifted kids. So that’s the Minnesota Council for Gifted and Talented. They do webinars and picnics and resources, and they have chapters like a schooling chapter, which I joined, that brings families with homeschooled kids together who are gifted to talk about how much fun it is to raise these quirky kids.

Gretchen Roe: 00:03:59.106
And I think one of the things that’s really important because we got several questions about this is what is the definition in your world of a gifted student? Because it’s not the same as a child who has a talent, so.

Kelly Noah: 00:04:16.610
That’s always a fun one. And I’m not going to gatekeep anyone’s definition of gifted, right? And every child is a gift and every child has gifts. So that makes it really confusing when we talk about gifted kids. It’s not that every child doesn’t have gifts. There’s a couple of clinical-type definitions that I like. One comes from the Columbus group, and they say that giftedness is where asynchrony meets intensity. So it’s a mouthful, right? But it’s talking about kids who are asynchronous. They’re not all at the same level for their age, and they have some intensities that go along with that. Those intensities might be psychomotor, sensual, intellectual, imaginational, or emotional. But let me unpack that just a little bit. What I’m saying is some kids for third-grade age are just 3rd graders, right? They’re happy with the curriculum. They’re happy with their friends. They’re happy with other interests and things fit for them. And then you get kids who are just a little more, right? They might be third-grade age, but 4th-grade life fits them. Kids, they’re a little bit older, a little more curriculum, but that fits. And then there’s these asynchronous kids. They’re a puzzle and their parents don’t know what to do with them. They might be looking at high school geometry for fun and crying over grade-level subtraction, right? Or they might be age of 10, doing curriculum work age of 15 and socially, emotionally feeling more like they’re 5. They call that the 10-15-5 rule. So there’s kind of those clinical parts. But what I like more is when I talk to parents, there are some things I hear a lot. And you’ve probably heard a lot of those too. You might hear things like, “I have an absent-minded professor,” right? Or, “When they’re thinking, I have to reach and grab them like they’re underwater. I have to pull them out to get their attention because when they think about things, they’re thinking so hard.” You might have an insatiable learner who outpaces you and then also has challenges with grade level curriculum, right? Those pieces can come together. These might be the kids who are not into things, they are in to things, right? It’s not just, “Oh, I like dinosaurs.: It is all dinosaurs all the time for a very long time. These are the kids with big questions and really big fears to match, right? It’s that bedtime, “I heard the sun’s going to burn out. What’s that going to mean?” Or, “What if gravity just stops?” Those big questions, they come in the middle of the night, bedtime. And sometimes these kids just hum at a different frequency. They just feel different. The last one that I hear a lot is either you find yourself saying or you hear people saying, “If you’re so smart, why can’t you just?” Right? That’s often finished with things like, “Tie your shoes or finish brushing your teeth in less than 20 minutes.”

Gretchen Roe: 00:07:26.586
Correct. And that I have to admit that I might have said that to one of my gifted kids on more than one occasion because it’s exasperating to have a child who is so intellectually ahead of his peers, but then socially not equivalent, so.

Kelly Noah: 00:07:46.322
Right. And when you’re talking to parents, what are some of those hallmark phrases you hear a parent say? They might not even be talking about a gifted kid and you go, “I think there’s a word you might want to know.” What do you hear?

Gretchen Roe: 00:07:58.326
Oh, well, I often hear that parents say that they’re chasing their kid rather than the other way around As far as academically, they can’t feed their children fast enough. I talked to a parent of a gifted child in Florida who was five and beginning to explore algebraic concepts. And I said, “Tell me more about that.” And this child could add, subtract, multiply, divide, manipulate fractions, understood percents. And I said, “Tell me again, how old is she?” And her father said, “She’ll be six in September.” That’s a definition of a gifted child.

Kelly Noah: 00:08:43.356
Right. They make these leaps and bounds. You teach them addition. They tell you about multiplication. You teach them notes. They show you chords. There’s leaps in there that aren’t very linear with ome kids, but not all gifted kids look the same and not every gifted kid needs the same thing. But these are some of the things that we hear.

Gretchen Roe: 00:09:04.779
So if I’m a parent of a child who I can tell is – you have already used the the term – quirky, how do I determine the difference between just a quirky kid? Because I have one of those too and a gifted kid.

Kelly Noah: 00:09:21.088
I think the very first thing to do is figure out whether it matters, right? If you’ve got a kid in the educational system, that label might be the difference between not having what they need in school and unlocking the curriculum and community they need. You can see out on the Internet, there are tests where your kids can study to pass the gifted exam, right? So it’s it becomes, again, a way to unlock certain types of content and community. If you’re not trying to unlock something in the school system, it might not matter, right? And then the other part is to see if there’s a puzzle that you’re trying to solve. Having a gifted label or another word might unlock Google search terms and communities to plug into things you didn’t know had a name. And you talk about signposts, right? A signpost doesn’t just tell you where to go. It gives you the reassurance that somebody else has been there and knows where they are.

Gretchen Roe: 00:10:21.759
Let me ask you, Kelly, how did you decide? I mean, you knew your kids were different. Had you always intended to homeschool or were you like me and you became that homeschool mom because you knew this child wasn’t going to fit into the public realm?

Kelly Noah: 00:10:40.793
That’s a good question. I was a happy public school kid. We have some great public schools. I liked doing the work. I liked being at the top of the class. It was good for me. My husband was a happy enough boarding school student internationally where he lived. And we didn’t talk about homeschooling as a plan. But as we were exploring life with preschoolers, there were some things that we were noticing about them being out of sync, right? And we were hearing a lot from childcare providers about how smart they were. And when we were looking at starting preschool and other programs like that, it was a little awkward to go to a program that’s really, really happy to be teaching your kids numbers and shapes when the kids are reading Harry Potter in bed at night, right?

Gretchen Roe: 00:11:33.987
Yeah, this sounds really familiar now.

Kelly Noah: 00:11:36.275
Really familiar. These little asynchronous pieces that rear their ugly heads. So we started having conversations about how much we appreciate that we have flexibility and we can create programs that move at our kids pace. And homeschooling ended up being a way that we do that. And then now that they’re getting older, the world of the 2020s has so many options and we can do so much curation and so much outsourcing and build what we need for when they need it. But the gifted homeschooling world is full of families who didn’t plan to homeschool. Or they planned to homeschool and didn’t expect to have gifted kids. Either way, it’s a bit of a joy.

Gretchen Roe: 00:12:20.499
So tell me how you determined then what you curate for your boys. Are their talents equivalent, or are you dealing with two entirely different sets of kids?

Kelly Noah: 00:12:34.744
They are very different from each other and that’s fine with me, right? We take one semester at a time. And that’s one of the things I love that I’ve learned from the MCGT community because I’ve talked to so many families as a parent. I’ve talked to so many parents as a volunteer, so I’ve heard so many ways to do it. And seeing that there’s a way to take things kid by kid, year by year, without just blowing in the wind is a really viable option. So we take it year by year. Some things we do together, some things we do separate. Sometimes it’s better to do kids in different curriculum so they’re not comparing book to book. And sometimes we just measure differently.

Gretchen Roe: 00:13:19.508
That’s interesting that you would say they’re not comparing book to book because that was a question I actually got this morning was, how do you keep the competition out of the equation? Because when you have multiple gifted kids in the same environment, there’s sort of that natural one-upmanship, if you will, so.

Kelly Noah: 00:13:42.644
Yeah, but it’s hard to have a smaller fish bowl at home, right? So I think part of that is making sure that their only comparisons aren’t each other. Making sure we have a rich community with other kids and other strengths and they can go places. We actually have one of the few homeschool co-ops that’s focused towards gifted kids right here in Minnesota. So our kids have spent one day a week with other gifted homeschooled kids since they were peanuts and they get to see that it doesn’t all need to look the same. One kid might know everything that’s ever happened with World War II history. One kid might know chemistry, one kid might know Shakespeare. And just to have that broader view that smart doesn’t look one way.

Gretchen Roe: 00:14:30.712
Which is really talented, but– not talented. That’s not the word I want. It’s really helpful as a parent to be able to go, “Oh, you’re not Doogie Howser.” You’re not just the unusual child to give them a sense of community. I know that my gifted child pretty much felt odd man out. He finished fourth grade at seven, and we realized that we inadvertently stripped him of his peer group because seven-year-olds thought he was weird and fourth graders thought he was weird. And so what would we do with that? So having that community is really important. How would you recommend a parent who has a child without that community to maybe begin creating that community?

Kelly Noah: 00:15:21.210
That’s great. Build your own, of course, but you can start by your kids unique interests. There’s something your kid is into and they can find other kids that are into that. They don’t have to be another seven-year-old that’s exactly here in math and exactly there in science and has this passion and that interest. But you might be able to find a whole group of 7- to 10-year-olds who are all into Greek mythology, right? You can study for the National Mythology Exam together, create a study group. So find an interest and invite other families because if there’s something your kids are into, other kids like them will be into that as well.

Gretchen Roe: 00:16:00.684
Right. right. That’s true. That’s true. So tell me…I want to go back to what you said when the preschool teachers were saying, wow, your kids are really, really smart. How do you balance that so you don’t get a child with an overblown sense of self?

Kelly Noah: 00:16:19.199
That’s hard. And sometimes we see with kids with any kind of gift, whether it’s a single gift or they’re gifted, is that the identity gets entangled into the circus trick, right? So I think part of it is separating the identity of who you are from how you learn. That’s a really big part.

Gretchen Roe: 00:16:43.967
Okay. And how does that play in your family?

Kelly Noah: 00:16:49.734
That’s a good question. I think part of it’s a matter of role models as adults. My husband and I work really hard, not just for our kids sake, but for our own to be lifelong learners and to be continually putting ourselves in situations where we’re learning something new or doing something uncomfortable. We used to have a family sing along every Christmas at our house. And one of those reasons is because I sing like a billy goat in a blender. And I want my kids to be able to see that we can have fun doing things that we’re not perfect at. And we don’t always need to be at the top of the class.

Gretchen Roe: 00:17:30.208
You have just said the magic word. Perfect. A lot of gifted kids have the misapprehension that if they’re gifted in one area, they have to be perfect in that area. And it creates a false sense of perfectionism. How do we as parents prevent that from happening? You’ve given us a great example. That’s awesome.

Kelly Noah: 00:17:54.394
It’s fun, right? Again, I think the identity piece, and that’s a very squishy answer, I know, but to not make being gifted or being academic the center of their identity. And surrounding them again with people who are growing and learning in all different ways can go a really long way. I mean, I know, I talked about being a happy public school student, but one of the reasons I was happy is because I was always at the top of the class, right? And that was a really bad place for me to be. Growing up as an adult, it took me a long time to realize that just because I have a different answer from everybody else, I may not be right this time. But that was the experience, right?

Gretchen Roe: 00:18:44.660
Well, was it that way for you all the way through college or was college a little bit of a reckoning for you?

Kelly Noah: 00:18:50.987
Good question. I was one of those kids who burned out after high school. So I let my scholarship go and I didn’t go directly to college. I started the working world and I did my college part time all the way through my master’s degree.

Gretchen Roe: 00:19:05.454
Wow.

Kelly Noah: 00:19:05.949
So I got to sa– but I separated myself out of cohort. But it was a healthy way for me.

Gretchen Roe: 00:19:13.888
And that advice is a good one. So we sometimes think that a gifted child puts themselves on a path and they have to march that path forward no matter what. And I love the fact that you found a different way as a path forward that might have been nontraditional, but you still got where you wanted to be.

Kelly Noah: 00:19:38.889
I had a great conversation with one of my friends who has a child graduating high school this spring, and he’s graduating high school with a couple of years worth of college credits, but he’s entering college as a brand new freshman.

Gretchen Roe: 00:19:54.690
Interesting.

Kelly Noah: 00:19:56.047
So he’s choosing to leave that behind. He’s not taking the pressure of everything I did in high school had to transfer into the value of the next degree. That was just how and what he was learning. And he’s getting to start fresh as a freshman.

Gretchen Roe: 00:20:11.426
My gifted kid, he graduated with a year of college under his belt, graduated at 17. But then he did a year in AmeriCorps. And we said, “Really? Is that what you think you want to do? And he said, “Yes.” He said, “One, because I want to give back to the community. Two, because I think I need a break.” And at the end of that year, we sat him down and said, “All right. What is the lesson you’ve learned?” And he said, “I don’t want you to take this negatively, but the lessons I’ve learned are what I don’t want out of life. And now, I’m going to be able to go pursue what I do want out of life.” And he started his own business and put himself through college in three years, so. And this was the kid that I literally thought I was going to have to go to college with him so he could find his way back from the bathroom. So brilliant, brilliant child, but couldn’t be left alone to do a single math problem on his own until he was a senior in high school, which I think is also something important that we need to identify. Just because you have a child who has a giftedness, doesn’t mean they’re gifted in everything. Now you might have that kid, but that’s not necessarily the case, so.

Kelly Noah: 00:21:30.578
And that’s one of those things we’ve talked about is having a label can start unlocking new information for you, so just things like executive functioning. That’s a new term to some people. But once you start learning about executive functioning, you can learn about scaffolding, these kids, and helping them develop it independently and help decide what they don’t need to develop independently. One of the national speakers we had on executive functioning said I have an assistant. I’m an adult. That’s a normal thing for a busy business person to have. It’s okay for kids to need assistance on things as well, right, or unlocking other pieces besides executive functioning, right? We talk about these pieces that don’t seem to make sense. And then you and I have talked about functional vision and functional vision therapy or primitive reflexes and all of these things that you never imagined would be a part of what they need to unlock. And we didn’t talk about this, but gifted kids are all different from each other. They don’t look one way or another, but there are things like gifted kids are more likely to need way more sleep or way less sleep than other kids, right? Gifted boys are more likely to be sleepwalkers or bedwetters. By the way, one of my favorite pediatricians says, “If a kid’s brain is prioritizing sleep over bladder control, let it,” right? So there’s all these little pieces that, until you start unlocking, some of these kids skip steps in development. And then that ends up looking like a kid who’s clumsy and doesn’t know how to ride a bike or can’t successfully ride a bike. So once you get into these puzzle pieces and you start saying, “Well, it’s okay to be talking about a kid who can do calculus but not tie his shoes.” It’s not just an absentminded professor trope. There’s actually pieces behind that, and there might be things you can do about it or just some reassurances that that’s okay for this stage.

Gretchen Roe: 00:23:37.629
And you also brought up something important. You brought up primitive reflexes. One of the resources that we’ll put in the show notes is a webinar I did two months ago with a wonderful homeschool OT about discerning whether primitive reflexes are a part of the equation that you need to define or not. I actually had the opportunity to be hosting a webinar in October with a vision therapist to help families begin to sort is vision part of the equation. And I think it’s interesting, in the parental realm, we need to be the best observers of our children. And tell me about a time when you thought you were marching forward with a path with one of your kids, and then you realized that wasn’t the right path.

Kelly Noah: 00:24:31.796
Oh, that’s a good one. How about week two of any semester? [laughter] Right. And the part of that kid by kid year by year. There absolutely have been times that…I learned this lesson early, but it was a little bit of a hard learn where I’ve leaned too much into “turning your kid’s interests into a growth opportunity,” right? So there’s some balance to be had. But what I’ll sometimes hear parents say is, “Well, my kid is really into this topic.” We’ll say Minecraft is the easy one. “My kid is into Minecraft. So we’re going to do Minecraft workbooks. We’re going to do Minecraft writing lessons. We’re going to do Minecraft periodic table. We’re going to do Minecraft, Minecraft, Minecraft.” And then the poor kid actually doesn’t get a break to enjoy their hobby as a hobby. Right. So that’s one thing that I learned early, but I learned hard. So my kids…”Kids, I’m going to be having a conversation with another new homeschooling mom. What’s something you think I should tell them?” “Don’t turn everything into a lesson, mom.” Right? I think that was about a six-year-old at the time saying that. And that’s one of the challenges, I think, especially if you’re homeschooling is being able to separate things or lessons versus, “We learn for fun and joy.”

Gretchen Roe: 00:26:04.491
Great–

Kelly Noah: 00:26:05.779
[crosstalk].

Gretchen Roe: 00:26:05.779
–great. My same gifted kid– I remember him saying, when he was in high school, he goes, “Mom, not every car ride is a field trip.” And–

Kelly Noah: 00:26:15.571
Oh, I like that

Gretchen Roe: 00:26:16.526
–then he pulls up in the driveway last summer with his daughter, and she hops out of the car. She was ready to turn seven. And she said, “Yeah.” She said, “We’d have been here an hour ago, except dad kept stopping to read plaques by the side of the road.” And I thought, “Oh, well, see, that was his criticism of me as a teenager because I was the one stopping to read the plaques by the side of the road.” But apparently, if you sow good seed, it comes back to harvest, so.

Kelly Noah: 00:26:47.622
It does. And I think every family and every kid is going to have a different right track for that. There are kids out there that they are so into physics, and they need to be doing college level physics at elementary age. That’s the right path for them. That is the only way they’re going to thrive is by being able to truly academically absorb and grok on whatever this topic this is. And there are other kids who might be into the same subject, and they might be better off just doing grade level science and making sure that they get all those pieces and then having fun studying their passion just as a hobby.

Gretchen Roe: 00:27:26.507
So in your group, how do you discern which kid you’re looking at? I know these are conversations that– the parents in your group have had these conversations. Do you all serve to support each other in this process, or?

Kelly Noah: 00:27:43.099
Absolutely. It’s just sitting around and talking about what we’ve done and what we haven’t done and what’s worked and what hasn’t worked. And I think, again, part of that community piece is having many parents to pull from and seeing that, for this kid and this topic and that family, that’s what they needed. And then the idea that it could be something else somewhere else.

Gretchen Roe: 00:28:06.089
Sure. Absolutely.

Kelly Noah: 00:28:08.441
It’s a broad range.

Gretchen Roe: 00:28:09.756
So I want to come back to something that we had briefly touched on, but now I want to come back to it in the form of one of the questions that we were asked, and it is, how do you help a gifted child build resilience and try again when something doesn’t come easily the first time?

Kelly Noah: 00:28:30.858
That’s a hard– it’s a hard question. Well, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. And the next best time is now. So I think that part of that building the resilience is in starting early and breaking pieces down. Again, we’ve talked about vision therapy or training a couple of times and there are kids that get missed because they’re compensating with knowledge, what they can’t actually see or process, right? And that can happen all over the board. So being able to make sure that you’re breaking down your lessons to not just be a demonstration of being able to answer a question, right? I have the knowledge or I get how to answer the question. But early on, pulling lessons apart and pulling learning apart, so you’re looking at the underlying pieces. For example, one of the history books that I really like, every sentence is numbered. And when you answer the question, you have to refer to which sentence had the fact. Interesting. So you know that Abraham Lincoln was shot by John Wilkes Booth, but you can’t just skip to the answer and circle the name that you knew was right. You have to go back and practice extracting from text.

Gretchen Roe: 00:29:58.872
That’s interesting because that’s a learned skill to be able to do that. So.

Kelly Noah: 00:30:04.478
So unraveling the questions that they’re answering and teaching them that there’s many different layers to the purpose of the lesson.

Gretchen Roe: 00:30:13.782
So you had sent me an email this morning and asked me a question, and now I’m going to visit that question in earnest. Tell me some of the curricula that you have found to be beneficial for these differently-abled kids, these kids that learn at light speed.

Kelly Noah: 00:30:30.836
At light speed. That’s a great, great question. The history book I was talking about is actually part of the critical thinking press, the Critical Thinking Company website, and we’ll add that to the resource list. I love Critical Thinking Company because you can just pull out logic puzzles and history texts in a way that you’re not trying to cover a whole bunch of curriculum and then you can compensate with knowledge for extracting. Another one I love– one thing we haven’t talked about is sometimes with these kids, dialing down the amount of information gives the most room for growth and thinking, right? We don’t need a giant book on a topic. Sometimes we’ll go to a very short article or picture book and have a lot of space to go deep with it. So another website I like or resource I like, Royal Fireworks Press. They have the Michael Clay Thompson Language Arts Series and these are four gifted kids. They work for everybody, but people sometimes dismiss it because it’s so simple. But Michael Clay Thompson is an artist at doing rich experience with few words and lots of white paper on the page. You’ve seen Michael Clay Thompson’s [crosstalk], right?

Gretchen Roe: 00:31:47.254
Yes. Yeah, I find his books fascinating, so.

Kelly Noah: 00:31:50.604
Right, they’re deceptively simple, but we can have the best learning and the best conversations out of stripping it down to good quality elements. So those are two that I like for traditional curriculum.

Gretchen Roe: 00:32:03.770
What did I miss that we really should have brought up?

Kelly Noah: 00:32:07.530
That’s a good question. Boy, I think we’ve covered so beautifully, so many things. Actually, there is one thing to add. The gifted label is awkward, right? And we’ve talked about how it can be– means a lot of different things to different people but the thing I hear from parents a lot is how hard it is to talk authentically about their kids, right? And if I’m starting to talk about my child’s real experiences, people look at me like I’ve got two heads. So I think it’s really important to know that there are communities out there and there are people out there who have kids that are quirky. It doesn’t mean that our kids are competitive with each other but that it is okay to talk about what’s really happening in your lives and to give other people grace too when they’re talking about their kids who have gifts that yours don’t, right? It’s not competitive.

Gretchen Roe: 00:33:18.977
I think sometimes we mistake the desire for honest interaction about our children with the misapprehension that we will be interpreted as bragging on our kids. And I think it’s important to recognize that what you may be doing is not bragging but you’re looking for insight into how your children function. And seeking that insight is always really important.

Kelly Noah: 00:33:51.816
Yes, well said.

Gretchen Roe: 00:33:54.052
So Kelly, in closing, as a parent who is on the journey with gifted kids, what do you want to say to those other parents who are on the journey? And by the way, I’ve got people saying we need to continue this conversation so maybe I’ll rope you into this again.

Kelly Noah: 00:34:11.512
Part two. Love them. Just love them. They’re a basket of quirks. Every kid’s different. You’re different. Just love them.

Gretchen Roe: 00:34:25.969
I love that advice. I think this is why you and I might be separated by many miles but we are heart friends because that would be the advice I would have given as well. I want to thank all of you for joining us this afternoon. Now you see why I so was impressed with meeting Kelly a year ago and why I wanted to have her and have this conversation with you all. I think it has been beneficial for us all. This is Gretchen Roe for The Demme Learning Show. Thank you for joining us. You can access the show notes and watch a recording at demmelearning.com/show or on our YouTube channel. Be sure to rate, review, follow, or subscribe wherever you may be hearing this, especially if you really enjoyed it.

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