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Gretchen Roe: 00:00:04.756
Welcome, everyone. This is Gretchen Roe for The Demme Learning Show, and I am absolutely delighted to welcome someone that I hold in very highest esteem for many reasons. The most important being, this is my daughter-in-law, Katie Roe, and I am delighted that she is here today to bring her wealth of expertise to you, talking about teenagers and handwriting. Katie and I did a webinar in the spring, and we were really talking about little people and handwriting when it emerges. And so many of you said this is a fight in your household for your teenagers. So today we want to unpack for you what you can do with a teenager and why this is a hill worth taking. And I’m going to let Katie introduce herself and then we’ll get started for real. Katie.

Katie Roe: 00:00:52.501
Thank you. I’m excited to be here. So I am a mom of two, having a 7-year-old and a 14-month-old now. I am an occupational therapist. I’ve been an occupational therapist for almost going on 10 years now. It’s hard to believe that. I have specifically just taken a huge interest in handwriting as hands have always been a fascinating thing for me. But fine motor skills are just such a unique set of skills that we have, and they’re so diverse in how we use them throughout life. So that’s a side passion project for me. And I’m so excited to be talking about handwriting today and bringing lots of resources.

Gretchen Roe: 00:01:42.398
Well, and I have to tell you, Katie kind of came alongside me in this particular enterprise because I really wanted to talk specifically about teenagers. And well over 100 of you responded saying, “I have a child for whom handwriting is a fight. And why would you make the case for handwriting when keyboarding is so easy?” So Katie, I’m going to start with that question. Let’s start from that premise, that it’s important.

Katie Roe: 00:02:11.508
Yes, I like to think of handwriting as twofold. It’s an extension of who someone is, right? It’s a way of self-expressing. And it’s also like you think of it, a signature and how we write our name is kind of a part of us and how we identify ourselves. And then the other piece is it’s a life skill. It is so important in so many different levels of whether it’s writing a check out or writing a grocery list or even just filling out paperwork that you get at the doctor’s office. A lot of offices still have some form of AP perform or something that needs a signature, at least. So I think it’s a very important part of development. And I think it has an element of personal identity also that’s kind of intertwined in that skill. Gretchen Roe: 00:03:15.874
So Katie, part of the reason that I wanted to have this conversation is parents often ask me, “Can’t we just keyboard? Isn’t keyboarding– isn’t this a solution?” And I know you have some diagnostic reasons why it’s not. So can we talk about that?

Katie Roe: 00:03:35.137
Yeah, for sure. There’s a lot of different ways of thinking about that. And basically, what it comes down to is neurodevelopmentally, it’s very different touch typing or using your fingers to press a key down versus actually taking the time to form the thought and then translate it to paper, and all the different little minute steps that are involved in that, whether it’s hand-eye coordination, whether it’s the formation of the letters, there’s a very physical and tactile process that goes on that actually then triggers a lot of reactions and processes in our brain. And it helps us to remember information so much more readily, to recall the information that we’ve written.

Gretchen Roe: 00:04:26.699
One of the things that we’re going to include in our show notes is a document that came from Northrop Grumman, where they actually studied the difference between keyboarding and handwriting. And they make a case that handwriting does really make a difference. I’ve quoted a Stanford study for years where they have taken a classroom of freshmen psychology students and half of them take notes digitally and half of them take notes by hand. And then they test them periodically. And the handwritten note-takers far outscore the digital note-takers. I think it’s important. And if we’re going to come at this from that premise, then what we have to do is answer all these questions that parents had for us, which is, how can I convince a 16-year-old that handwriting has merit?

Katie Roe: 00:05:20.004
Yeah. And I will caveat that with that technology is a very huge help, right? So there are ways to make the handwriting process easier and involve the technology, but also not forget that the handwriting piece is vital. So we can kind of get into that a little bit more, too.

Gretchen Roe: 00:05:42.707
Can we talk a little bit about that? We might as well go there first.

Katie Roe: 00:05:46.460
Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Gretchen Roe: 00:05:48.126
Good.

Katie Roe: 00:05:48.874
So there are a lot of resources out there of especially adults who have kind of navigated dysgraphia or some of those diagnoses that impact handwriting. And a lot of times, what they’ve found is having accommodations is a huge help, right? To be able to take notes differently, to be able to have more time on a test, or different accommodations with those things. But they found that using technology to take the notes initially, being able to type them out, great. That is going to make your accuracy better. You’re going to be able to get more information down. But then revisiting those notes and committing them to memory by actually taking the time to handwrite them afterwards as part of the study process is going to then ingrain them and further help you to recall that information later. So it’s incorporating the technological piece, right? But also then adding in the handwriting at a time that it’s not so stressful or at a time that it’s going to be more purposeful and helpful to the studying process.

Gretchen Roe: 00:06:55.045
Absolutely. I mean, I know I do things in reverse. I take notes at first because that helps me attend. But then I’ll take my notes, and translate them into typewritten notes, and paraphrase into my own words what I want to say. And I was the kid who was held after school every year until fifth grade because my handwriting was so abysmal. Now I’m left-handed. And several parents ask us about, “How do you get a lefty to write properly?” And so I wanted to know, do you have thoughts about that? I mean, I know you live with a lefty, so.

Katie Roe: 00:07:36.487
Yeah. So left-handed writing, honestly, the basics are not super, super different from right-handed writing, right? The formation and all of that might look a little different from person to person, but it’s not– I think the big pieces are set up. So encouraging the left-handed writer to put the page on the left side with the paper turned slightly them to be able to write at that angle. And also any written reference work like anything that they’re referencing, you’re going to want to put on their right side so they can see it as they’re writing. So it’s more like the setup of how you’re kind of helping them to create good habits as far as their grasp and their posture and where they’re kind of positioning themselves as they’re writing. And then, obviously, the grasp is going to be kind of your your foundation for good formation and spacing and all of those pieces.

Gretchen Roe: 00:08:36.582
So can we talk a little bit about the grasp, Bibi, because I know the ideal grasp is this grasp. If you have a child who’s really struggling, you’re the one who taught me that this was an alternative grasp. So can we talk about why this is a good alternative for a grasp? And what I’m doing here, for those of you who are listening to the podcast, is my first attempt is to hold the pen the way we all anticipate, which is between thumb and pointer finger and resting on your middle finger. But that can cause hand stress. If I remember this conversation when we first had this conversation a couple of years ago, and you had said that an alternative would be to rest the pen between your first and second fingers, and then hold it like in a tripod grasp.

Katie Roe: 00:09:31.900
Yeah, so I’m going to back that up even more, actually. That is great. If you have tried all of the things to strengthen the hand and to really try for that tripod or even quadruped with your middle finger involved on your third finger. If you’ve tried all the things and that just doesn’t seem to work, then that’s a great adaptive. And that’s to help with the hand fatigue. It gives a lot more stability. I’m going to back it up even more. So with our natural wrist tension– so I’m going to show you something called tenodesis, which is our hand just kind of floppy has a lot– you’ll see my hand naturally falls straight, right? It bends when I bring my hand up, just extending my wrist is what happens to my fingers.

Gretchen Roe: 00:10:23.170
Oh, they’re folding over themselves kind of naturally. I hadn’t even thought of that. But yeah, they do. Okay.

Katie Roe: 00:10:29.383
So a lot of times for OTs, one of the first things that we look at when we’re looking at grasp is how much wrist extensions, so bringing your hand up, the person is using in the writing process because what’s happening is your natural tendency, your tendons that cross the wrist, they have a certain amount of tension that’s going to pull the fingers in towards a natural grasp, right? I don’t have to do much work to get that. So when we bring our wrist extension into play, we can recruit our bigger muscle groups and not have to use our smaller muscle groups in the inside intrinsic muscles of the hand to hold–

Gretchen Roe: 00:11:09.765
So you’re saying the bigger muscle groups in the arm working that wrist extension.

Katie Roe: 00:11:11.986
Yes, the forearm. Yes.

Gretchen Roe: 00:11:14.730
So would that be something that a parent should look at if they have a child who is not doing that wrist extension so that their hand is pulled back? That would be something almost, a diagnostic for them.

Katie Roe: 00:11:28.037
Absolutely. So when I’m writing, I’m usually writing with a little bit of wrist extension already and that’s how I hold my pencil. You can naturally get that by increasing the incline. So I, a lot of times, I’ll use a three-ring binder and I’ll use a three inch one that’s going to give a little slant. And that will naturally, putting a piece of paper on that and changing the writing [crosstalk].

Gretchen Roe: 00:11:49.631
So putting the paper actually at an angle.

Katie Roe: 00:11:51.849
Yep. You can buy a slant board. There are actually writing slant boards that you can get on Amazon or writing specialty stores. But yeah, that’s a natural way to encourage that wrist extension and that will help aid that grasp. Usually I do that with a lot of kiddos that are also complaining like, “My hand’s tired.” That usually means that they’re recruiting a lot of the hand muscles over using the power grasp of having an incline.

Gretchen Roe: 00:12:23.884
I never knew that. That’s really interesting. So if they aren’t engaging the muscles of their arm, their hands are going to fatigue more quickly.

Katie Roe: 00:12:31.785
Yes. If you think about it, our larger muscle groups are made for stamina and power, right? Our hand muscles are so tiny, they don’t have a lot of capacity for that stamina. So if you can recruit your larger muscles for doing most of the effort, and then we use our fine little muscles to really use our fingers in the writing process and that fine stroking pattern, that’s going to help the stamina piece and help you be able to write longer.

Gretchen Roe: 00:13:04.739
So I want to ask another question, but let me say as an aside, all of you who are joining us live, I have the Q&A open. If Katie and I say something that brooks a question in your mind, please feel free to ask, because we’re doing this because you ask us to and we want to make sure that we meet you where you are. So if I have a teenager who’s struggling with writing, what’s a better instrument? Is it a pencil? Is it a ballpoint pen? Is it a marker? What would be? I would say anything that would get them to actually do it. But what would be less fatiguing on those small muscle groups?

Katie Roe: 00:13:43.953
Anything that’s going to write smoothly, but also feels good in their hand. So I personally love thicker pens. I love the feeling of a thick pen with a grip on the end. And I like ballpoint pens. I tend to gravitate towards them over the ink ones. So get a feel for what feels good in their hand. Try a couple different size and shape pens and just see. Pencils also. You can get the triangular, thicker pencils that tend to feel like nicer in their hands. Some little kids, I’ve also done short pencils. So some teenagers, they’re like it’s just so much pencil. They might want a smaller pencil. They might want a heavier pencil even. So just kind of try different mediums. I’ve even had teens go back to crayons because they like the resistive part of a crayon. And that also will build your strength and stamina as well. And it’s super fun. But yeah, whatever is going to make it exciting and easy for them is kind of the way to go, especially as they’re older. It’s not as much the foundational stuff anymore, it’s more what’s going to be the path of least resistance for them.

Gretchen Roe: 00:15:08.540
And Katie, in a homeschool environment, you have an advantage over a lot of our guests because you understand, you were homeschooled yourself. So it’s a different proposition when you’re homeschooled. Where would a parent be able to help and encourage their student toward the writing process without it becoming overwhelming?

Katie Roe: 00:15:34.252
Yeah, that’s a good question. So I think getting on the same page is really important, right? Helping them to understand that it’s more than just school related, right? It’s a skill that– if they’re not able to be somewhat proud of or happy with or content with their handwriting, it’s going to become an embarrassment or a resistive spot for them later but really getting on the same page as why it’s important and what specific things need to be worked on, right? And getting clear on what the expectations are. Just what they expect of themselves, what they would want, and then also what you’re seeing from the academic side.

Gretchen Roe: 00:16:24.098
Okay. So we’re not saying that they have to now cast aside a keyboard, but we’re saying there is that neurological process to engage in that for some small period a day.

Katie Roe: 00:16:40.078
It’s a both and, yeah.

Gretchen Roe: 00:16:41.778
Right. Okay. Terrific. I have a great question here from Adina. She said her 15-year-old daughter was recently diagnosed with low graphomotor skills. Am I pronouncing that right? Graphomotor skills. And she said she was surprised by this because she has nice cursive handwriting. She does sometimes get overwhelmed with lots of writing. Can you help her understand this better?

Katie Roe: 00:17:05.720
Yeah. So the graphomotor piece is being able to– it’s a coordination piece where organizing the brain processes and getting that to flow out through the hand. And so a lot of times there is– it’s more of a pacing thing. There’s a way that the approach tends to be a hinder as far as if it’s a high stress or lots of writing ahead. You can make it incremental, right? Do five minutes at a time. You can, like we were saying, path of least resistance. So she has a favorite instrument to write with. Again, I would definitely suggest look at her positioning and her setup. Does she need more of a slant surface? Will that help with just getting her set up and feeling comfortable and confident? And that confidence will then help her to be able to also advocate like, “Okay, yeah, I am going to do five minutes of this and then I need a break.” Or just kind of learning her body better as far as how things flow a little more easily for her.

Gretchen Roe: 00:18:26.714
That does make a difference. And I think also, too, when you’re looking at the scope of academics. For instance, one of the places that many parents said to us that they found an enormous amount of resistance was in compositional rating. So you and I had talked about using your phone as an opportunity to capture a first draft with some voice-assisted technology. Just open an email and hit the talk button, recognizing that you’re going to get a draft. Something that really is a draft. So maybe saving the handwritten portion for the final copy might be a better opportunity there. We had several parents ask us about assistive technology. And when I was looking for assisted technology for Lucas, your husband when his handwriting was so abysmal when he was a teenager back when rocks were soft– now he’s going to get mad at me because he’s not that old, but the truth was he had poor handwriting and he was left-handed. And there were so many things that I didn’t realize that went into that process at the time. So can we talk about the burgeoning world of assisted technology and how that might be to a parent’s advantage to explore that a little bit?

Katie Roe: 00:19:51.612
Yeah. And the thought that also– I was thinking about as you were talking about assistive technology is with going to graphomotor struggles as well, a path of least resistance might be using an iPad with the stylus. Apple has a beautiful stylus that’s just like a pencil or a pen, but the resistance and the– there’s no resistance. It’s a smooth touch to the screen. You can still hand write, but it’s going to– it’s a nice blend between the electronic and the hand and the paper and pen. But yeah, assisted technology is one of those areas that it’s growing. And research is also helping to inform what types of things are available now. Dictation is a beautiful tool, right? Being able to verbalize something, not have the parent do it for you, but they have full autonomy in that, being able to use that, but then going back and handwriting at their own pace, right? Using the iPad and the stylus is a beautiful way to kind of merge the two. And also teaching them a little bit of shorthand. Shorthand is still the pen to paper, right? But it’s a way to kind of, especially with somebody that doesn’t have the stamina or that kind of thing, it’s a way to be able to get there in a shorter amount of time.

Gretchen Roe: 00:21:19.680
It’s funny you should say that because I dug out a book here that’s on my desk that is back from my college days, and it was one semester. And it is completely full all the way to the very end. It’s all handwritten notes. And you can tell every lecture starts out tidy, and the further I get into the lecture, the messier it is. But the reason I dug it out was because just what you said, teach them a kind of shorthand to be able to understand their own note taking. I had forgotten some of the things that I had shortened in a shorthand kind of way to be able to take notes. And I think it helps if we help kids envision how this will benefit them. So you had a great list. And by the way, my notes did finally repopulate here. You had a great list of suggestions for why it’s important. And so I wondered if maybe we could go through some of those because so many parents said, “Help me. Help my child understand why it’s important.”

Katie Roe: 00:22:27.723
Yep. Yeah. Well, jumping back real quick to the print versus cursive, there’s also a piece of the cursive and being able to write more fluently, not having to pick the pen up from the paper as much too. Cursive writing is another loop to that. But yes, going through that list, being able to– we kind of covered the neurodevelopmental piece, but do you want to kind of remind me some of the pieces?

Gretchen Roe: 00:23:01.638
Well, actually, one of the things I want to…while we’re talking about the neurodevelopmental piece, I think you were the one who taught me that if you have weak core skills, you’re going to have poor handwriting. And so many more children are more sedentary today than we used to be. So can we talk a little bit about how those are interconnected?

Katie Roe: 00:23:24.457
Yeah. So if you think about how our body is kind of, we have these milestones, right? That our body is kind of pre-programmed to neurologically achieve certain milestones as we grow and develop. And so as kids are not as active and not as moving through space and having just like we used to. As kids, I remember having those, what are they called? Not the merry-go-round, but the twirl things to play on in the playground and swing sets. And so those opportunities are not as prevalent or available for kids playgrounds as much anymore and I know it’s–

Gretchen Roe: 00:24:06.248
That helps form our vestibular function.

Katie Roe: 00:24:08.869
Vestibular system, our visual system, even just getting outside and doing rough and tumble play. There’s a lot of proprioceptive input that we get, just awareness of where our body is in space. And our visual system is– visual and vestibular are big pieces, big components to the hand-eye coordination that we need to be able to write. So those skills that we get from playing outside and from climbing trees and from even learning how to fall, bumps and bruises, and playing roughly and wrestling– all of those things help to build our core and our foundational muscle groups for sitting in a chair and handwriting. [laughter]

Gretchen Roe: 00:24:54.186
Well, we are going to include in the show notes a TED Talk about how climbing and rough and tumble play and those things are integral to being able to be successful and pay attention because that was an unmet need in so many of the questions that parents ask us– is they were having trouble having kids stay on-task, particularly when it involved a pen.

Katie Roe: 00:25:22.052
Yeah. So a lot of times, I will go to the basics when I’m doing a handwriting assessment for somebody. And I look at how they’re sitting in their chair, what their desk space or table space looks like. A lot of kids– a lot of teens even will be sitting at their desk. But maybe they’re kind of in a slotch position or their chair’s not supportive enough that they’re able to sit upright and have good alignment. You want to go for a 90-90-90. So your hips and your knees and your ankles– they should all have 90 degree angle, being well-supported, sitting up tall, and your feet flat on the ground. And that’s going to create a good base for your core engagement and being able to then sit up tall and write.

Gretchen Roe: 00:26:07.888
So you’re saying the kids in my household who are doing this kind of writing– that’s probably not the best where they’re slouched over the desk and they’re– well, they’re viewing their hand from the side. It’s probably not the best way to achieve a great handwriting [laughter] experience. [laughter]

Katie Roe: 00:26:23.793
No. And when those things are happening, I tend to look at, “Okay. is it core strength or is there actually an underlying visual thing that’s going on? Is there a vision piece to it that’s not been identified or addressed?”

Gretchen Roe: 00:26:37.546
Great. And that’s a great segue. Why is that important?

Katie Roe: 00:26:41.027
Yeah, so our vision– the whole processing of visual input is super important because we can’t have hand-eye coordination without being able to process our information well. So there are a lot of actually binocular vision like eye-teaming, tracking, accommodative issues, so how our eyes are– the eye muscles are working well or not. There’s a lot of the memory piece, so what we see and can recall what our brain is holding onto or processing, and then also even coming down to form perception– so how our brain is interpreting visual forms and space on the paper. Those are all pieces of the visual perceptual process. And so they can significantly impact our handwriting and also our comprehension and literacy skills.

Gretchen Roe: 00:27:43.710
Well, I know that in the last 10 years as I’ve been Demme’s special needs consultant, I’ll often have parents tell me that they have kids with challenges either reading, or comprehension, or things like that. And I always ask about the handwriting piece because when you have that messy handwriting that mixes upper and lowercase letters, they can’t on a line, goes up and down and things like that, that’s often an indicator of a visual dysfunction. So when you evaluate someone for handwriting, is that a piece of your evaluation?

Katie Roe: 00:28:15.170
Very much so. I think those struggles unaddressed will kind of be persistent and persistently impact somebody’s ability to read and write well.

Gretchen Roe: 00:28:28.368
And it’s not dyslexia. It looks like dyslexia, it behaves just like dyslexia, but it has an organic cause with a possible resolution. And parents really should be intent on exploring that. I know you gave us a whole list of resources that will be available in the show notes. Are some of those resources oriented toward a parent being able to parse the difference between–?

Katie Roe: 00:28:52.520
Yes. Yep. Yes. Some of them will look at– there’s a whole checklist on there and a lot of resources for different areas of handwriting that then can be drawn back to if so-and-so struggling with this specific thing, it’s usually related to these kinds of problems. Gretchen Roe: 00:29:10.517
So several parents said something about slow handwriting speed that their kids were just– it was laborious handwriting. So can we talk a little bit about what a parent might be able to do to support their student when that is the issue?

Katie Roe: 00:29:25.779
Yeah. Again, you kind of want to do some detective work as far as hearing from your child, and also just your observations of what might be challenging, what might be going into that laborious writing or taking a long time. Sometimes it’s as simple as your child’s really struggling with they want each letter to look perfect, or it could just be the processing. Maybe the cognitive processing is just a little bit slower, and they’re really having to take their time to take their thought and put it onto the paper. So a lot of times with that detective work, if you’re not really sure, you can go see an occupational therapist, or you can go see someone that might be able to point you in the right direction and have some of their own– their eyes might see something different. But a lot of times, practice is one of those things that is going to also help, especially with the slowness, if it’s just a matter of struggling with the process of taking the thought and putting it on paper. A lot of times, just practice journaling or say, “Hey, write me a sentence about– or write me a paragraph about so-and-so or about your weekend.” Just giving lots of opportunity to practice, and it doesn’t have to be more than 5, 10 minutes. But the practice is the big piece.

Gretchen Roe: 00:30:50.818
And I think you’ve said that several times. So I think I want to emphasize that a little bit that it does not have to be a lengthy period of time to make those neurological connections. 5 to 10 minutes is really the sweet spot if you’re trying to move someone off of base. Now, your own husband, my darling eldest son, had abysmal handwriting. And he decided at the age of 17 that he wanted neat handwriting. And I think you and I both laughed because his handwriting is a lot neater than either of ours. A little bit of this needs to be stated that sometimes your kid just doesn’t care.

Katie Roe: 00:31:32.588
Yeah. And I straight up asked him the other day. I was like, “Okay, so your mom and I are doing this webinar. And I really am curious, what was the thing that changed for you?” And he straight up said, “It was a form of art for me.” I realized that expression was, “It could be something different, and it meant a lot to me in that.” And it became a form of art for him. I mean, he makes some beautiful calligraphy pieces now. But that’s a very important. That’s why I said it’s a personal identity thing too. They have to care. And if they don’t, then it is a struggle to do anything if you’re not– I mean, we all know that if we’re not really thrilled about something, it’s hard to get the motivation to do something about it.
Gretchen Roe: 00:32:20.747
Right. And I think it’s very easy as a parent to be exasperated when you have poor handwriting in one of your children to articulate that. And I think as parents, we have to be careful that we’re not the source of discouragement for our children in that process, to be able to say, “In September, your handwriting looked like this, and today your handwriting looks like this. I see positive changes,” because that encourages your student to persevere.

Katie Roe: 00:32:51.395
Yes. So that is one of the tips that I give parents is be their cheerleader, not their taskmaster, or not the nitpicker, right? We don’t want to be– I don’t know how else to say it, but we don’t want to be making it about what’s wrong with them, right? We want to be like, “Hey, I know you’re capable of so much more. I see this as just a little bit of a bump in the road. And we all have areas we can improve in. This is just one of them for you.”

Gretchen Roe: 00:33:28.923
Well, I laugh because people will say to me, “Oh, you have such lovely handwriting.” And I think, “Thank heavens for a fourth-grade teacher who insisted that I stay after school to learn how to write more successfully.” And there was a couple of parents who posed this question that I would really like to ask you is, how can I get a child to loosen their pencil grip? So we were talking about loose pencil grip, but what happens when they are choked up on that thing and they’re just grasping the daylights out of it?

Katie Roe: 00:33:59.284
So widen the surface. So give them either a grip and you don’t have to use grips for forever, but at least till they get the muscle memory. You definitely want to make it widened or more cushy. I like the silicone-type grips that are a little bit thicker, and you can actually squish them a little bit more because that will also dampen some of that squeeze. But again, maybe it’s also looking at their positioning and how they’re sitting at the table writing. The incline is going to naturally increase some of that grasp, but maybe they need a little bit of that incline so they can recruit those other muscles and not be so tight using their internal hand muscles. So play around with the positioning, what feels good, what feels better, what helps with the light versus stronger versus lighter grasping.

Gretchen Roe: 00:35:02.007
Right. And maybe it’s a different instrument too.

Katie Roe: 00:35:06.079
Yeah.

Gretchen Roe: 00:35:07.749
I know that one of my children needed a kind of almost like a flare marker and that helped her lighten up her grasp because she was too intense.

Katie Roe: 00:35:25.016
Yeah. A lot of times I’ll use dry-erase boards too because it’s a vertical surface so it changes the whole writing experience in general. But then also the markers will give that feedback. It’s a thicker marker, but it will also give that feedback of [crosstalk].

Gretchen Roe: 00:35:39.689
So you’re talking a marker like this kind because there are dry-erase markers that are thin like this. But you want the great big fat ones.

Katie Roe: 00:35:50.127
Yep, the thicker ones.

Gretchen Roe: 00:35:51.071
Okay, okay. Dysgraphia, can we talk a little bit about that? We went into some depth in our conversation last week in preparation talking about dysgraphia and how difficult it is to really parse that. Can we go into a little bit of an explanation for parents? Because I think as parents, we have so much information that’s available to us. When we see a child who’s struggling, we sort of conclude, oh, it must be dysgraphia.

Katie Roe: 00:36:20.201
Yeah. And a lot of times, especially in school systems, they like to have a label for things. And so a lot of times, what might actually be an underlying sensory / sensorimotor type struggle that gets labeled as dysgraphia, it’s not quite the same, although it looks very similar at times. Dysgraphia is a neurological condition. So it is– there’s a lot of trains of thought on this. They’re still doing a lot of research to understand it. But basically, it can come about through traumatic brain injury, or it can be just an underdeveloped part of the brain that inhibits some of the graphomotor skill sets, the ability to take your thought and put it on paper. And so, there’s a spectrum, right, and there’s also this theory that there’s a superficial dysgraphia and a deeper dysgraphia, the deeper one being harder to overcome, the superficial being you can do exercises and there are ways to kind of decrease its effect or change it. So it is, I think, a very– it’s more rare than not. I think it’s misdiagnosed frequently. And I think in order to get down to the– in order to really understand what’s going on, you have to look at the sensory and motor pieces of it. And so you really do want to make sure that you rule out the vision piece and that you are making sure that neurologically, there aren’t missing pieces to that puzzle as far as maybe retained reflexes or there’s a sensory processing piece in there. All of those pieces kind of come together to form…

Gretchen Roe: 00:38:23.743
Can you explain in a little bit more depth? I know what you mean, but for our audience, what do you mean by retained reflexes?

Katie Roe: 00:38:30.021
Yeah, so we are naturally born with primitive reflexes that kind of are our survival, right. We have gag reflex; we have a startle reflex; we have our AT&R that you frequently see babies sleeping. And those are all protective, but they slowly, as we grow, they neurologically integrate into our motor patterns. And so that’s why we want to see kiddos crawling for a long time so that they build their back muscles and their cross body integration and all of those foundational motor patterns. Those reflexes sometimes don’t fully integrate. And that’s what we call a retained reflex. That can get in the way of then those other puzzle pieces of our neurological development to fall into place. And what happens is we see little pieces of attention deficit or a heightened gag reflex, or I get scared easily because my startle reflex isn’t fully integrated. So we’ll see little hints and pieces of those retained reflexes in our function and in how we perceive and interact with the world.

Gretchen Roe: 00:39:55.683
Okay. And so if a parent has a child who’s struggling, who would help them figure out if some of those reflexes have been retained instead of discarded the way they’re supposed to be.

Katie Roe: 00:40:08.438
Yeah, occupational therapists can do that. I’ve also known chiropractors, especially if they are Webster Certified or some of the pediatric certifications that chiropractors have, they would be able to test for those and also developmental pediatricians. There’s a whole subset of people that can.

Gretchen Roe: 00:40:33.472
So it’s worth exploring in a little bit more depth than just simply saying, “Oh, my child has dysgraphia, so they’re not going to be able to use one of these on a piece of paper.”

Katie Roe: 00:40:43.070
Absolutely. Yes. And I’m always a big advocate of never take the label as just what it is and say, “Okay, well, we’re done. We can’t go any further.” Because our brains and our bodies are so good at coping and accommodating, right, and there’s so much potential. Neuroplasticity is a thing, and that is our brain can rewire itself with whatever we practice. So our body has so many natural tendencies and abilities to heal and grow and change and rewire in many different vast ways. I think it’s a mindset thing. I think it’s take a label so you have something to call it, and you can learn more about it, and you can get involved in different therapies and different things that help you better understand it and learn how to cope and grow and change with it. But it’s definitely not a, “Oh, I have dysgraphia, so I’ll never be able to do this.” It’s a, “I have dysgraphia and my brain can learn how to overcome or accommodate or work with those struggles.”

Gretchen Roe: 00:41:51.648
I like the way that you said that it is never take the label for what it is and leave it at that but always explore deeper. I think that that makes a tremendous amount of difference. Tell me then if I am a parent of multiple children who are all struggling, where do I spend my time? I have three kids. I’m going by one of the comments here. She has three kids, all of whom are struggling with handwriting. I think I know what your answer is going to be, but I’d like to hear as a parent with limited time for those children, where should she invest her time first?

Katie Roe: 00:42:30.322
Make it a group activity [laughter]. There is something about– I do handwriting social groups. And so there is something about the peer relational and social piece that makes handwriting so much more exciting.

Gretchen Roe: 00:42:48.792
Talk to me a little bit more in-depth about that. Explain that to parents because I think this is something parents really should understand. A handwriting social group?

Gretchen Roe: 00:42:58.778
You set me up here but that’s okay.

Katie Roe: 00:43:01.036
It helps to normalize, right? It helps to normalize, “Hey, I’m not the only one that’s struggling with my handwriting.” Right? It also helps to create those playful dynamics and that creativity. It’s hard to get creative maybe sometimes for individuals on their own, but when you’re in a group, those creative juices can kind of flow, right? You can feed off of each other in new ways and learn something different about yourself or somebody different. So I think definitely you can incorporate even games, you can play games related to handwriting or lots of different, I don’t know, the opportunities are endless for practice and for creativity with that.

Gretchen Roe: 00:43:50.789
Okay, so tell me a little bit more. What could be a game that I could play with my three children who are all struggling with their handwriting?

Katie Roe: 00:43:57.241
Yeah. So do you know that game where somebody writes the start of a story down and you fold it and then

Gretchen Roe: 00:44:04.682
like a mad lib?

Katie Roe: 00:44:07.409
Similar. Yep. And so each iteration will go through the whole group, and then you open it up, and then you read whatever is written down. Similar to that, where you can have like a telephone game, but instead you’re writing a message and you’re passing it around. I mean, the internet is endless with a lot of those kinds of games. But even you can incorporate drawing, like drawing a picture, and then the next person has to write what they think it is and go on like that. We’ve even done pop quizzes. We’ll say a letter and you have to make it with your body. Somebody has to make it with their body, and then somebody has to illustrate it in some way. And then somebody has to hide it in some way. So it’s like a lot of different ways of engaging with handwriting, but it’s not always sitting at the desk or a table doing a worksheet.

Gretchen Roe: 00:45:11.951
And I think the important thing that you’ve said here is all of that engagement is affirmative. It’s not, “Geez, your handwriting is really crappy. I don’t know what I’m going to do with you,” kind of. And as parents, we get exasperated. I think we’ve all said that at one time or another. But being able to reframe that in a positive context makes a tremendous amount of difference for kids.

Katie Roe: 00:45:36.847
Absolutely. And even doing preparatory stuff, you can do a whole exercise group, where big brother is helping little sister wheelbarrow across the room for a relay race. Like everybody go outside and see if you can do a cartwheel. Or I don’t know, it’s circus day. So we’re going to find a way to, I don’t know, make a sheet rope and climb up the rope or something. There are lots of different ways that you can also work on the foundational strength and core skills. And it doesn’t have to be, specifically, the handwriting piece to get there.

Gretchen Roe: 00:46:16.003
Well, so many of our parents ask, one form or another, the question of, “How do I convince my teenager that this is important?” And I know that all of us as parents are salesmen. We have to be because there’s things that we have to sell our kids on all the time. So what are some things that you would, when you sit down with a student and you’re convincing them that there’s merit in them investing a little bit of time, what are some of the things that you say?

Katie Roe: 00:46:50.379
A lot of times I’ll go to just asking them how they think about handwriting. Right? What they foresee it meaning to them 10 years from now. What kind of ways might you be using handwriting? What kind of ways might you not be using handwriting? And also just kind helping them to see how it’s telling a story in how they’re expressing themselves. Right? And that tends to be a huge area of buy-in when you’re like, “Okay, how many times do you have to write your name, right, on different things throughout the day as part of identifying yourself? How cool would it be to have a signature that you are so proud of? It’s the best picture of yourself. Can you give a picture of yourself in your signature?” So just kind of incorporating that tie-in of like, “It’s an expression. It’s a unique expression of you. Only you get to decide how cool that signature is going to be, and how cool you know your paper is.” Or Yeah, just like it’s just an extension of who you are in a way, and so kind of bringing that buy-in of that piece, I think it helps a lot. And you might have to kind of set the stage and then let that percolate a little bit, and they can come back to it. But I think also planting those seeds and just realizing it’s going to be on their own time at times to kind of decide when they’re ready to adapt a different way of thinking about it.

Gretchen Roe: 00:48:34.605
Sure. I know I often tell this story of Lucas from stage. His handwriting was almost illegible until he decided he didn’t want it to be illegible, and sometimes that’s the child who’s sitting in front of you. So don’t grow weary in that process because it’s worth it.

Katie Roe: 00:48:53.801
Yeah, yep.

Gretchen Roe: 00:48:55.392
So some parents ask for us to compare and contrast the difference between print and cursive. And I don’t know what your feelings are about that. I know what it is when we talked about younger children, but what are your feelings with regard to older students?

Katie Roe: 00:49:12.006
Yeah, I think it’s very preferential when it comes to older students. I think there are pros and cons to each, but I think cursive tends to be a lot more– it’s quicker, and it’s a lot more flow, and it’s a lot less effort intensive. Print is important for foundational understanding of your alphabet and how words go together and all of that. But once you get to a certain point in that and understanding that, it’s actually more labor-intensive to have to pick up your pen from the paper so much rather than just the flow of cursive.

Gretchen Roe: 00:49:46.619
Great. One of the things I think that’s important for us to recognize as well is that. No muscle oriented activity develops overnight.

Katie Roe: 00:50:00.444
Amen.

Gretchen Roe: 00:50:01.519
And so I’m a parent. I don’t want to grow weary and well-doing. What should my expectations be? If I have set a goal to improve my teenager’s handwriting this year, is that a goal I can accomplish in a month, or what’s realistic?

Katie Roe: 00:50:22.105
I think realistic is at least two and a half to three months. I tend to lead with it takes around 66 days to form a new habit, right? That also goes along with everyone’s body is different. And so like building those muscles in the stamina might take more like three months over those 66 days. So I think it’s a realistic year-long goal. It’s a realistic three-month goal. But you want to like break it down into chunks of what’s the big problem? And then how can we in small steps that don’t feel overwhelming, get there?

Gretchen Roe: 00:51:02.236
And I think you said this earlier, but it bears repeating being the observer to think about where the challenge is arising. Is it poor posture? Is it poor pencil grip? Is it all these things?

Katie Roe: 00:51:15.921
Do that detective work and include your teen in that process of, what does it feel like in your body? Where is the big resistance? Are you resisting actually sitting and holding the pen and putting stuff on paper? Or is it just, I hate the pen? Or is it my environment? Kind of get get the input from them as well, as far as how it feels and what it’s like.

Gretchen Roe: 00:51:40.029
It’s interesting. I notice about myself, and I don’t know if my desk right now is a disaster because I have been out of the office traveling, and so everybody brings everything into the office and sets it on my desk. And I find that in a distracted workspace like this, I can’t write very well. So that I think is also a piece of the equation as parents that we should evaluate is is that kind of distraction something that’s impeding your student’s ability to be able to write?

Katie Roe: 00:52:12.235
Absolutely. Especially with the cognitive piece, if they’re not able to focus in or their thoughts are– they’re having a hard time organizing their thoughts to then get it to paper. Those processes–

Gretchen Roe: 00:52:24.574
We had one more question that I wanted to make sure before we bring this in for a landing. And that is a couple of parents mentioned having students that had very disproportionately large handwriting. What might that be an indicator of and how could I do something about that?

Katie Roe: 00:52:44.632
Yeah, it could be, again, going back to the vision piece. It could be an underlying visual perceptual challenge. It could be that they just need practice fine-tuning those dexterous strokes. So it could be that they need practice writing on the wide rolled paper, lined paper and staying between the lines or practicing, I don’t know, there are different exercises and work worksheets that you could use to kind of help them work on sizing and paring it down. But a lot of times it really is those fine muscles and really just practicing making the letters smaller and having that visual guide.

Gretchen Roe: 00:53:27.645
OK. All right. So, Katie, we’re almost to the top of the hour. What should I have asked you that I haven’t asked you in this conversation today?

Katie Roe: 00:53:36.449
I’m trying to think. I think we covered a lot of the stuff that we talked about before and that we wanted to share. I think big takeaways and big pieces that I might just kind of hone in on is make it creative, explore different avenues of handwriting and what that means to your teen, or if you’re an adult wanting to improve your handwriting be a part of it. Maybe be a model of like, “Hey, I’m going to actually relearn some cursive or I’m going to take out this journal and I’m going to make it a goal every day for five minutes. I’m going to sit down with you. You’re going to do your handwriting thing and I’m going to journal.” So you can kind of approach it from many different sides. Calligraphy is also a really fun way to express that handwriting piece but also slowing down, slowing down and being intentional in the whole process. Just kind of understanding really where the struggles are, what’s worth pushing on, and where you can support your child as that cheerleader or your teen, really, as that cheerleader. And what’s not working you can go ahead and scrap and clean that slate and try something different and new and see where it takes you.

Gretchen Roe: 00:55:01.342
I think one of the things that’s really important that you’ve said today is– actually it’s three things together. First of all, it’s being that ardent observer. And second of all, it’s not the whole McGillah. It’s do it in small pieces, 5 to 10 minutes at a time. And third, it’s to recognize that it’s going to take time. So we’re going to do this over a period of time and help our kids be successful. You’ve provided us with a whole list of resources which will be available in the show notes which I think is really terrific. And I think this is an argument worth having with your students. I say you don’t have to attend every argument you’re invited to but this might be an argument worth having. I laughingly told you when we met this past week that there was an article in the paper this past spring about the athletes who were signing their letters of intent for colleges and they didn’t have the ability to make a signature. And I found that kind of ironic and a little bit amusing. But I think we as parents if we’re going to educate our children at home, you are right in that signature is a piece of our identity. And we need to help our children understand that. And as we’re talking today, I’ve realized that I’ve had the same signature since that beloved fourth-grade teacher insisted that I learn how to write a signature. And it never occurred to me how that would affect my life. But it does make a difference, doesn’t it?

Katie Roe: 00:56:34.605
It really does. Yep. There’s so much that goes into that.

Gretchen Roe: 00:56:37.835
So now you have a seven-year-old and a one-year-old. As we conclude, even though we’ve been talking about teenagers today, what are some of the things you’ve done with them to set them up for success as far as handwriting is concerned?

Katie Roe: 00:56:52.684
Yeah. One of the big things I’ve done, especially with my seven-year-old because she just completed vision therapy and she has had struggles, is just enlist other people in that process. I don’t have to have all the answers. And as mom, there are certain battles that others need to help. She doesn’t want to hear from me. So really enlist other providers and other outside resources and help to support your child so that you can be mom and you can enjoy. Be their cheerleader and you can let others do the heavy lifting at times, other professionals. But also just getting outside and the sensory play, Not being afraid of messes, and the rough and tumble play. Even my seven-year-old, she loves wrestling with Papa in the living room or pillow fights. So get them outside, get them playing, get them engaged. Do a family– I don’t know. A family paper fight or a family pillow fight. All those things. And the messes are so good and so important.

Gretchen Roe: 00:58:02.591
And one of the things I think that we did in our conversation in the spring that I want to make sure that I close with is we live in an age of a lot of gameplay.

Katie Roe: 00:58:13.136
Yes. Yeah. And phone.

Gretchen Roe: 00:58:15.185
Yes. And can you explain how the gameplay can impede handwriting?

Katie Roe: 00:58:21.238
Yeah. So–

Gretchen Roe: 00:58:22.038
Because this is so important.

Katie Roe: 00:58:23.340
Yeah. It sets you up really for poor posture in general because you’re hovered over something or you’re looking up like this at the TV screen. But also just like hunched over shoulders over the game thing, that’s not functional for grasp, right? Because you’re using your thumbs a lot more.

Gretchen Roe: 00:58:42.375
You’re closing this space down, right?

Katie Roe: 00:58:44.350
Exactly.

Gretchen Roe: 00:58:45.150
The space between your thumb and your first finger needs to be a nice C in order to hold that pencil properly.

Katie Roe: 00:58:51.491
Yep. And then there’s just the motor movement pieces of just isolating that thumb versus all of your tiny movements of all the fingers. Kids are missing even stickering and learning to crochet. Or just all of those beating. All of those little fine motor crafts and things that they could be doing that help to really fine-tune the movement of the fingers and the hand-eye coordination.

Gretchen Roe: 00:59:20.926
Absolutely. Absolutely. And if you don’t learn it, it impedes your adult life. I was laughing last night. I was sitting down and I had to sew something back together for one of the boys. And I realized that sewing is as much about hand-eye coordination as anything else. So if you’re struggling with the pencil portion of it, maybe teach your children to do some hand sewing or some embroidery or something like that.

Katie Roe: 00:59:53.131
Yep. Cross stitch

Gretchen Roe: 00:59:53.978
That might help their process. Cross stitch, yes. Absolutely. I haven’t done a cross stitch in years, but [crosstalk]–

Katie Roe: 00:59:59.480
I know.

Gretchen Roe: 01:00:00.953
Katie, thank you so much for this time. Thank you for all that you’ve invested for our families. The resource list that you compiled is extensive, and I’m very blessed to be able to share that in our notes. Thank all of you who joined us today for this conversation. This is Gretchen Roe for The Demme Learning Show. Thanks for being here today. You’ll find the show notes and a recording at Demme or on our YouTube channel. Be sure to rate, review, follow, and subscribe wherever you may be hearing this, especially if you really enjoyed it. And we’ll look forward to bringing you some more important topics in the weeks to come. Thanks, everyone. Have a wonderful afternoon.

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