[00:00:00] Sue Wachter: Where the water and the sand meet is the tiniest, tiniest dark line. When you’re painting that picture, I get that dark line in every time, and it’s amazing how it transforms the picture.

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[00:00:19] Gretchen Roe: Good afternoon, everyone. This is Gretchen Roe for The Demme Learning Show. I am so excited to welcome my sweet friend and colleague, Sue Wachter. We worked together for 10 years. It was a privilege to work alongside Sue because she has the ability to see beyond the everyday in so many different guises. She has left Demi Learning. She’s retired now, but retirement doesn’t mean for Sue what it means for anybody else, because she’s busier now than she’s ever been before.

I’m going to let her talk to you a little bit about that, and then we’re going to get into the meat of this fabulous conversation. Sue, I’m so excited that you said yes, that you’re here today. Tell us about you.

[00:01:10] Sue: I was just thrilled to be asked, to be honest, because I needed a little nudge to finish up my website. I’ll just be honest. That’s what I’m going to be with you if you join my program. We’re just going to be honest with each other. I’m not going to know everything. If I bloom nothing else from all those years of working with parents, I learned from you. It may appear that I was consulting, but I approach every person as an individual. I just always expected to learn something. I didn’t just put anybody in a box. I don’t put anybody, buddy, in a box.

I learned so much. What I learned is what became part of this development. At the same time, I was teaching art classes. I started teaching professionally when I probably had only maybe been doing art for a couple of months. I needed some extra money. I threw in an application to the college for the Continuing Ed program because I could teach a beginner, I already knew how to do that. I knew how to be a beginner. I threw it out there. From then on, I became teaching. I love it.

My motto always is, if I don’t learn something, teaching a class, I haven’t done it right. Even the beginner has something to teach. Everybody has something, their own individual. Anyway, I could go on and on about that. Anyway, what are we going to talk about?

[00:02:43] Gretchen: One of the things I think that I find fascinating about you is– I was thinking of you just this past week. I was reading a book talking about different kinds of intelligences. One of the things that I think sets you apart from so many other people is you are extraordinarily intelligent, but you don’t come to the table with that first. You come to the table with curiosity. You want to learn from others because it makes you better. That is such a rare skill in the educational world today.

We’re filled and surrounded by people who are like, “Hey, I’ve got a better way for you to do this.” That’s not the way you have approached everything that you do in the art world, in the math world. You have looked to, how can I make it a better experience for the student sitting next to me? That’s an extraordinary thing.

[00:03:46] Sue: Yes, it’s a gift. I don’t even know how I do it, to be honest. It just happened. I love it. I love it.

[00:03:53] Gretchen: I have had the privilege of sitting under your tutelage, and I have to tell you, it’s an amazing experience. Tell us about Skills to Create. Tell us how this grew into what is becoming a juggernaut.

[00:04:12] Sue: It all grew, again, from that base of learning to work. Mostly, the math you see is where I started out with. Literally, we knew nothing. I was at the beginning. We knew nothing. We were dependent on each other and the customer as we walked them through to help us learn.

[00:04:33] Gretchen: I want you to talk a little bit about what that means for you because you were one of Steve’s original distributors out on the West Coast. You had an educational store, and people got to experience math, you see, because you came alongside them and taught them what it meant to use manipulatives to instruct math. Talk a little bit about that.

[00:04:57] Sue: It may seem simple, and it may seem like, “Is this enough? Are we getting enough?” It’s so rock solid. I’ve seen so many people, through the years, even struggling students, that came on board. I was with them the whole time as we figured out how in the world to help their child and them, because it’s not just, “Here, take the book,” in many cases. It can be, but not always. I also developed the ability to see how it connected with my art. Then I would talk to other artists who are professionals, and they would say, “Oh, yes, math is totally part of it.”

Yet, on a daily basis until all those years, at least not daily, but weekly, I would talk to a parent who said, “Oh, my son, he’s the math guy. He’s going to be the engineer, but my daughter, she’s artsy.” They just didn’t know who they were talking to, eventually, because they’re both. Both are both. They may not be to the extent. I would say, “Well, when your son becomes an engineer, he’s going to have to know how to be creative because he’s not going to be doing worksheets anymore.” Through those conversations, I realized that connection is important to be made.

The artist who may think, “Oh, well, I’m just going to be an artist,” no, she’s going to need math skills. Because as you get into in-depth with art, and even at a lower level, I even pull in math when I can, not obviously, but I present it when I’m working with a beginner student. Sometimes, they’ll say, “Wait a minute, you’re doing math.” I’m just not good at math. [chuckles] It’s like, “Okay.”

Then I’ve had them say, “Wow, if I would have been taught this in math,” what I was teaching them connected with art, they said, “It would have been a different game.” Hearing that over and over on both sides is what got me thinking.

[00:07:04] Gretchen: You piloted these ideas with a group of students this past year. Talk about what you piloted and what it was like to be with these kids.

[00:07:14] Sue: I wanted to have the hands-on experience of not only taking them through the course. I took them through series 1 and series 2. Trust me, they helped me develop in the end because I can have my idea, but until you see it happening, you don’t know if it’s going to work. You’re going to learn from their responses. I learned two things. I learned that it was effective. However, sometimes the hardest part for people on this course is to do a little bit every day because they would say, “Oh gosh, we were so busy last week and we just came in, we did it yesterday.”

They’re not going to get the effect. It’s not a get the lesson done. Help you and them develop a habit of seeing creation, as there’s a lot of math out there, but seeing not just what you see. Get in the car and go by this road or whatever, but what did you miss? Because you missed something. I miss something all the time. It’s not that I see it all now, but I try to make a point of seeing it. Oh, you’re thinking of our walks in California?

[00:08:28] Gretchen: Absolutely. I’m thinking of our walks in California because I posted a picture a couple three weeks ago, and you said, “Hey, I’d like to use this in my class.” I was like, “Absolutely, sure.” I’d have never taken that picture if you had not taught me to, as I walk along, look at what I’m seeing in a different light. Look at it the way light plays, the way shadow plays, the way things are reflected. You taught me that. I think it’s just so cool.

You walk with me every day when I go on my five-mile walk because you’re there and I’m going, “Oh my gosh, look at that. That’s amazing.” I tried to take a picture from the very same spot this morning, but it was literally so foggy. The picture, you couldn’t tell up from down, it was so foggy.

[00:09:27] Sue: You couldn’t even find a picture in it?

[00:09:30] Gretchen: No, you couldn’t orient yourself in what we were seeing. It was so strange to me because I was thinking how beautiful this sunrise picture was three weeks ago. We’ll include that photograph in the show notes so people can see what you and I are talking about. I think you have to train yourself to look beyond what you call the obvious. How have you done that? What are the kinds of things that you do? I remember you talking about being on a beach maybe seven or eight years ago, and looking at the waves and the way the sand played and the patterns.

[00:10:15] Sue: With the water. Probably everybody else in the room knows this, but I thought, “Wait a minute.” I don’t know if this was what I was talking to you about, but the main thing I’ve learned at the water, and I check it every time. It’s always there. Where the water and the sand meet is the tiniest, tiniest dark line. When you’re painting that picture, I get that dark line in every time, and it’s amazing how– I go, “Oh, wait, I got to get my dark line in.” It transforms the picture. It’s because that’s what’s really there.

If you leave that tiny little line out, you could look at that picture, “Something’s missing.” It may be beautifully done, but that tiny line. It’s little things like that. That’s more, I don’t know, that could be a science thing. Who knows? Also, when you’re taking a picture, to look for the horizon line that needs to be horizontal. That’s where you really see it is at the beach because where the sky and the water meet is another line. It’s horizontal. It isn’t cattywampus at all. It’s horizontal, which is just fascinating to me.

Then my latest beach experience was, we were at the beach, and of course, the sunset is always amazing and blah, blah. I said, “Oh, we just need to come off.” Then I thought, “Wait a minute, Sue. There is a beautiful sunset at your house almost every night. You need to start looking at it.” I make myself go and look at the sunset. It’s just wonderful because it’s those pauses where you see beyond the obvious and not be all in your busy stuff. It’s just like my shoulders relax. I don’t go on and on, but just for a couple of minutes, it just revitalizes me and relaxes me.

That’s how it is with all of this, all of the stuff that I do. I usually pick one thing that I’m looking beyond. If I’m out driving, I’m looking for a certain thing or whatever.

[00:12:30] Gretchen: Tell us then how you have taken this skill of being able to be an ardent observer and how you’ve created a class for students to be able to teach them that skill.

[00:12:46] Sue: The first course is going to be very basic. If you have older students, I would love their feedback. I know they’re going to roll their eyes and go, “Please, I already know all this.” We’re going to take what you know, but we’re going to take it a little further. You, the parent, I want to encourage you to be the student with them. Develop the habit with them. When you’re out and about, you’ll say, “Oh, I like that perpendicular line there.” Don’t forget that five-year-old can know what a perpendicular line is.

When I’ve done the classes with the kids, they’re all ages. They can handle the vocabulary. They can understand it. They might not say it correctly because their voices aren’t there yet, but they can get it. I’m all about, even though you are working with curriculums that are really teaching the basics in math, don’t be afraid to use those big words. When they hit those big words in upper grades, they’ve known it all their life. It’s not like, “Okay, wait a minute.” They probably have known it all their life without the word perpendicular, but then it gets confusing sometimes. It did for me.

[00:14:06] Gretchen: You have dug into the third rail of why so many adults don’t feel artistically inclined. Your website does that with the Pablo Picasso quote that you say, “Every child is an artist,” but the problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up. That really is true. What you’re doing here is reconnecting mathematical confidence with the ability to see beyond. Just the obvious.

[00:14:38] Sue: Right. That they’re connected. Now, sure, in art, we do have the freedom, and we want to make sure this is clear too because not a lot of people understand this. They’ll take an art class and think that you have to do perfectly what the teacher says. You might in their class, but not in mine, because I’m developing an artist, not someone that has a skill to do such and such.

[00:15:04] Gretchen: Right. I think I remember you saying once upon a time, “I don’t want someone to mimic artistry. I want them to learn to trust their own creative instincts.”

[00:15:15] Sue: Yes. Also, a piece of that is to embrace their mistakes. I wouldn’t know what I would do without oops, but I don’t get mad and beat myself up and throw it in the garbage. I say, “Okay, what did you just do? Because you want to not do that again.” Because I’ve made so many mistakes, I know how to get out of mistakes. I can take a painting that I’m working on, mess it up, and fix it. That’s important too, to have a safe place to be creative because when you beat yourself up, then you start saying, “I’m just not any good,” and all that, and that gets repeated and repeated.

Basically, if I have someone walk up to me and tell me my art’s not any good, I just put them on the list that they won’t be a close friend. You don’t need that in your life. You could go to them when you need some harsh critique, then you know who to go to. Because of that, I’ve developed the group of they’ve become artists. They started out students, and now some of them are way itself beyond me. We still meet up and paint together because we learn from each other. We learn in the room. We learn from each other’s mistakes. We all are there to learn from each other.

There’s just something about artists that are there to learn from each other rather than compete and try to be the best in the room, that’s powerful.

[00:16:38] Gretchen: Talk to me a little bit about how you teach these children to choose a medium. In your studio or in your classroom, when you’re doing this instruction, there is several different kinds of things, and do they ignore that, or they just give it a try?

[00:16:58] Sue: I will give instruction. They’re experimenting is what makes it happen. If we’re using paint, that’s a whole other thing. Someone told me the other day– Actually, for some students, it’s important to dump a bunch of paint and mix it. If they’re at that phase, it’s the cheap stuff in the drawer over there. I literally say, “Oh, you want to do that? That is really cool. These are the paints you do that with. When you’re ready to settle down and just put a little bit of paint out at a time, these are the paints you get to use.”

They go, “Okay, I’m going to go for the stirring up paint,” because I realized that was part of a process for some students. They need to connect with the paint that way.

[00:17:45] Gretchen: Sure. I have vivid memories of my kids going, “Well, what happens if we combine yellow and red together?” That’s entirely different than me saying, “Well, you’re going to get some form of orange.”

[00:18:02] Sue: That’s why I’ve grown to work on a small palette. Literally, if I was going to teach watercolor and you bought that little tray, I would take all but the basic colors. I’d take the brown out, take the green out. I would encourage the student to learn to mix the colors because you can get out of the three primaries and throw in a little black and white sometimes. You can get everything. The beauty of it is when you use a limited palette and don’t use just random colors like red, this, blue, and that, your picture will harmonize.

That’s often, if you look close, go to a gallery and look, you’ll see that they’re using the same paints over and over. I don’t know if you’ll be able to– I would be able to tell, but they’re using the same maybe five or six colors over and over, and then the painting harmonizes. There’s little things like that can make a huge difference. I’ve had adults in my, because I love teaching beginner adults. If someone says, “Oh, I don’t have a creative bone in my body,” I said, “Oh, you need to come to my class.” “Oh, can you come over?”

Because when you just show some of the basics correctly and you give them a safe space to create in where someone’s not going to be critical or tell them they’re awful or whatever, they’re going, “Whoa.” They see that they do have creative skills. If they want to go from there, it’s possible now.

[00:19:36] Gretchen: Over the years, we have often had this conversation. I’m a parent, and I have a child who says, “Oh, I don’t have a creative bone in my body.” You can get into a disagreement, but instead of entering a disagreement, you change the language to observation. I think that’s really important. Help a parent understand how that changes,

[00:20:03] Sue: I think the important thing is the goal isn’t that it is perfect or comes out a certain way that’s expected. I’ll give you an example. I just did a park and rec class where I used my– here’s the stuff to do it. A little boy came up to me right at the beginning, goes, “I only do two-dimensional art.” I said, “Okay. Well, here we’re not going to do two-dimensional art. See all that stuff over there? I want you to create a sculpture out of something.” Had the blue gun, had wire, had foam, all kinds of things. Because he had developed his skills in drawing, his sculpture was off the charts.

This is his first three-dimensional piece that he had. Oh my gosh, he built this sculpture of this big monster. He took a hot glue gun and dripped– I never would have thought it’d drip hot glue. It was just phenomenal. I didn’t give him direction. He just picked up what other people– because a lot of the other kids are just grabbing stuff. Like, “Okay, let’s go get the hot glue gun and let’s get the ice water out so we can burn.” When we burn our finger, we get in there quick.

Just from being there, very little instruction from me other than we had to do some things to make it so it wouldn’t fall over, he created this beautiful piece. From then on, he was good to go. He was making all kinds of stuff. I think, because I keep evaluating that, is it because it’s a safe space where everything is encouraging. Also, I’m allowing them to make a big mess. The other piece is, like I will say, “Out in the studio, have at it. If you take that in the dining room–” You have to decide with your parent how much mess is allowed.

You can’t take what they do in my studio, where the place just looks like a bomb blew up when they leave, and take that home. You need to discuss that with the parents.

[00:22:17] Gretchen: I have memories of you teaching a class for a group of us at Jeff’s house. We were all being so careful to be tidy. You said in that moment, “You’re not going to get to art if you keep trying to be so tidy.” It was such a revelation to all of us that mess equals creativity. Speak a little bit to the parent who’s like, “Oh, no, we don’t do glitter. We don’t do glue. I don’t even want to do Play-Doh because I don’t want you to mix the colors.” Talk a little bit about that, parent. Get us out of that constraint. First of all, I totally respect those that don’t like glitter. You can leave that off the list. I love glitter. [chuckles]

[00:23:09] Sue: I have that.

[00:23:11] Gretchen: For years, we called you The Glitter Grandma.

[00:23:17] Sue: I respect that. I understand that some people, that just too much because that glitter– I could probably go out in my studio now and find glitter from five years ago. I get that. Do what you can. You start doing what you can. The main thing is, there’s going to be times when you take a course where the teacher is giving them instruction along the way. Make sure there’s some experience where say– well, most artists just need time to debrief, and they need to. If you were just going to do it your way, draw it again.

Take what you learn because the reality is, in a class like that, you’re only going to take away one or two pieces of it. You’re not going to take an art class and get it all. I’m still trying to get it all. There’s always going to be just those one or two things. You have to make your own rules, but try to consider that. One of the profound moments at one of my classes was when a parent was there, they said, so-and-so, “Do what the teacher said.” I said, “No, we’re not going to do what the teacher said. If you have a better idea, I want you to go with it here.”

Now, there’s going to be some teachers where you’re going to have to do what the teacher says, and you’re going to learn from both. I’ve taken some of those classes as an adult, and they’re tough because I don’t like to do what the teacher says either. I learned a lot. I knew I needed to learn what they were teaching, so I was good and did what the teacher said. I value those teachers. I’m not critical of those teachers. I value, to this day, the one teacher where I took a botanical class. Oh my goodness, that is do everything exactly what you’re supposed to, and I went.

I turned to somebody next to me. Three hours to do a little butterfly this big. I learned so much. I’m not criticizing the class because I still use pieces of those skills today every time I paint. I went out, and I said, “Tomorrow, we’re going to just throw paint in the backyard. I got to balance out here.” We threw paint in the backyard. I looked down. A picture was done. It was this incredible picture. I sold it for $500 from throw paint. I didn’t sell the butterfly, but you see what I mean?

[00:25:42] Gretchen: Sure.

[00:25:43] Sue: It’s a balance of both. It’s a balance of both. You’ve got to have sometimes tight instruction, but make sure your student knows. “Okay, so on this one, we’re going to follow the instructions.” Then we’re going to work on other things that we’re not fully going to follow the instructions. You need both because that’s where your building skill may be in the other one, but they’re freed up to be creative in the freedom one.

[00:26:11] Gretchen: I think one of the things that you said early on in this conversation is you’re better off to do a little bit every day than try and climb in and say, “Okay, today is my art day, and we’re just going to do a ton of art.” Why is that different? Why is a little bit every day better–?

[00:26:31] Sue: With my course, especially with the course part, we can have– as you get involved in my course and say, “Okay, so we’re trying to figure out how to bring actual other art in, then call me.” You know what I mean? Call me, and let’s figure out what works for you guys, your patience of mess level. The thing is, the minute you start getting frustrated, I don’t care how old you are, you stop because, as you know from spelling, you see, the brain shuts down, and nothing is going on. How many times have you seen–?

I’ve seen it where my own kids would start out with this beautiful painting, and then they’re tired and they want it over with and they trash it at the end. With my grandkids, I caught on, I haven’t seen them making this stuff, and then I’d say, “Oh, that’s wonderful.” I’d take it away and say, “Here, try another one.” I’ve got some beautiful art on the wall because I knew that if I let them continue to the level of frustration, it was going to be trashed.

[00:27:42] Gretchen: Talk to me a little bit about being the parent who doesn’t necessarily easily recognize that threshold. You’ve been teaching art now for 20 years, so how do you recognize in a student when they’re getting to that level?

[00:28:01] Sue: I would maybe have both ends going on. I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately and how to do that when I’m not there. To have them have a project they’re working on that they set a timer, and they say, “Okay, you’re just going to work on this. Leave it out. Don’t put it in a drawer somewhere.” They’re walking by it. I always say, “When you do that,” because I do that with my own work when I need a break or it’s frustrating me or it’s not– I set it out, and it will talk to you.

I’m not hearing voices, but you’ll be walking by not even paying attention to it, and all of a sudden, you’ll go, “Wait a minute, I know what I need to do next.” It’s absolutely fascinating. If you wanted to do a class where– because they come to my and they’re spending an hour and a half working on stuff. Part of the reason they don’t get frustrated because they’re doing their own thing. I’m guiding them, I’m providing with the supplies, I’m providing them with the basic instruction, and then they go.

[00:29:08] Gretchen: You’re also allowing them to step into the zone in such a way that they probably don’t realize that hour and a half has even gone by.

[00:29:18] Sue: I always say, “If you need to leave in an hour, leave.” When you’re frustrated, and I’ve had them leave early, 45 minutes, because they became frustrated, and they would get where they’d say, “Okay, I’m ready to go.” I’d say, “Awesome.” That’s good that you caught that you needed to step away. That’s important. Having them persevere, and I believe this even in math, that they’re frustrated working through that worksheet, use something else to learn to persevere. Especially when they’re learning a new concept because they’re not learning, they’re just wrestling it through and they’re [crosstalk] spinning their wheels.

[00:29:56] Gretchen: Just because you’re not sitting there in front of the math, it doesn’t mean your brain’s not still working on it. You’re the one that taught me this. I think this was a conversation we had years ago about algebra because you said you would sit down and you’d wrestle with a problem and you’re like, “I don’t get this,” and you would walk away and your brain, not your conscious brain, but your subconscious, is still working on that problem. Then you would be able to come back and address that.

[00:30:31] Sue: That was when I did Algebra 1 for work because I had not done it in school. It was when I realized that. I never did a full worksheet because I went through this process of shut down, step away, come back, look at the answer key, figure out where I’m not getting, listen to Steve again, whatever I needed to do. When I got it, it’s like, “I’m testing out again.” I did, because I really had it, because I wasn’t fighting anymore. I knew I would get it. After I did that a couple of times, it’s like, “I’ll get it, but not today.”

[00:31:14] Gretchen: That, “I’ll get it, but not today.” If that is two sentences we could teach our kids-

[00:31:21] Sue: And ourselves.

[00:31:23] Gretchen: -and ourselves, yes, how valuable that would be? Where are you starting medium-wise with these kids? When you start with a new group of kids, are you starting with watercolors? Are you starting with crayons? Are you starting with–?

[00:31:39] Sue: If they’re aligned with me, they can choose whatever they want, which was interesting because a lot of the kids who– typically, the parents said, “They didn’t care about art, they loved wire.” Wire was big.

[00:31:54] Gretchen: Really?

[00:31:55] Sue: Yes, or they would bend wire. Now, I will say, I just remembered what else I do first class. We do junk sculpting. They’re supposed to bring little pieces of junk, just scraps out of the junk drawer or whatever. I bring stuff, too. We have hot glue guns, and we build sculptures. Now, keep in mind, if you do this, parents, that if they start collecting big junk, you’re going to have big sculptures.

In the future, because I feel bad for the parents when they have this five-foot sculpture that they’ve got to take home and put somewhere in the house, start out with gathering nuts and bolts, and the littler things that’ll fit maybe in a shoebox. Then the hot glue gun is scary because they will get burned. I always have a glass of water, and I let the parents know that we’re hot glue gunning. “Is that going to be okay?” Where they really get burned is if they touch the tip of the thing. They don’t get burned so bad on the glue.

That’s the part you got to say, “Look, this is going to really hurt if you touch this little part right here.” They love the glue guns. I did a camp once and we started out with the glue guns. We would have them doing the various other art things. All they want to do is go back to that glue gun. They love it. The kids got where they would do flat pieces. They’d take a piece of wood. All my old wood chunks out in the yard from building and stuff, we’d cut them. They would put little designs on with screws. It’s just fascinating.

[00:33:42] Gretchen: Well, I laugh when I hear you say that because taking home a five-foot sculpture– My 10-year-old granddaughter has really been focused on building dioramas lately. When I was with her in April, she, her dad, and I were at Aldi. She was like, “Dad, I have to have this box.” Her father was really funny. You could see him pulling himself together and saying, “But you have seven boxes now that are all in various stages of the construction. Maybe we should finish one before we get another box.” [chuckles] I was like, “Okay, I might be that parent too.”

[00:34:34] Sue: There could be times when I was raising kids that I could be that parent, too. Don’t be hard on yourself. Literally, they do this in my studio, and it all goes home, right? I don’t want it to stay.

[00:34:46] Gretchen: How do you help develop that daily habit? What are the instructions you’re offering to students as far as a little bit of daily work?

[00:34:57] Sue: I’m thinking, and I can’t wait to hear what parents have to say, but I’m thinking, because I’m not in that role anymore. I’m thinking, “What would I need to do?” Because I’m not real good about developing habits myself. I’m a little scattered. Do you have it be when we finish this subject, we spend three minutes on this? Do we set the timer randomly? Because it just takes a couple of minutes. It’s just pausing, observing, whatever the topic is for that.

I really am not sure yet, and that’s why I love working with the parents because you guys have the answers for that. Or every time you stop at a stop sign, and there’s no car behind you, you do it? I don’t know.

[00:35:43] Gretchen: Talk to me a little bit about that observational skill because one of the things I think that you have a rare capacity is to teach people to see things out in nature. Recently, you posted a picture of a tree.

[00:36:00] Sue: Oh, I had to pull over because I’ve been all summer obsessing over the tops of trees and seeing things in them. Sometimes, I’m bursting out laughing. I’m seeing these cartoon characters because the problem is almost every student, and even me myself have been taught that the tree is perfectly symmetrical, right? It’s pointed at the top. Once in a while, it might look that way, but most of the time, there’s all this crazy stuff going on at the top of that tree and the side of the trees, and they aren’t symmetrical.

That’s a whole science lesson right there. You could take that and say, “Why is that?” I won’t go into that. I’ve done research on that, too. It’s fascinating why there’s more than one reason why those trees are not perfectly pointed at the top.

[00:36:51] Gretchen: You’re also a big fan of John Muir. Talk to us a little bit about how that would be helpful for a parent who maybe is more black and white to be able to look at some of his materials to be able to see the world more creatively.

[00:37:06] Sue: Absolutely. John Muir Laws is a nature journalist, which I have seven years– Every summer, I have nature journal friends, and we’re out there looking at bugs and being just total weirdos, I’m telling you. We love it. We love it. That also helps observe. He has courses on his site for young students and everything if you want something involved or just watching one of his videos. Sometimes, he gets a little chatty on the video, and it’s like, “Come on, let’s keep to the subject here.”

Just the other day, a nature journal, it was too rainy, so we decided to go to the studio and watch his video on drawing trees. That’s usually one of the hard ones. It was fascinating. I had some pretty fancy artists in my group, and we were all learning new ideas. A lot of people will watch for figures and clouds, which I do that as well, but there’s all kinds of other figures around. Trust me, there’s all kinds of things. When you get course one, lesson one is going to be about the straightedge.

Well, just everybody stops right now for a second. How many straight edges do you see in the room? Hundreds. That one’s an easy one. Then go out in public and see where you see straightedge. We’re going to build from there. We’re going to take the straightedge, and then we’re going to add to it and get different shapes going.

[00:38:44] Gretchen: I have a memory of you. We were somewhere together. I think we were at a conference. It was hot, we were outside, and you were like, “Well, what happens if we–?” You grabbed a straw, and you flicked water on the ground, and then you said, “What do you see?” Do you remember this? [chuckles]

[00:39:05] Sue: I don’t remember that, but it sounds like something I do.

[00:39:07] Gretchen: We were outside. It was hot. I think we were in Phoenix. It was hotter than Hades. Here we were, we were throwing water on the ground and going, “Oh, well, look, I see Big Bird.” [laughs] That’s the only one I remember was Big Bird. It was so much fun sitting there, being creative with something that you knew was only going to be there for moments. What’d you see there?

[00:39:42] Sue: Yes. It’s only going to be there a minute. Or another, when it rains, take a walk, and there’s oil spills out on my road. Oh my goodness. They’re amazing, the shapes and the colors. You just get sidetracked for a minute, and you move on with life, but there’s just something about seeing those things. You remember that, and shapes and things will be easier to do in your art because shapes aren’t always precise to be beautiful.

[00:40:17] Gretchen: Sue, in these last few minutes, tell us a little bit about By My Design. That is your website, bymydesign.org. Tell us what parents will find when they go there. Of course, this will be included in the show notes, but I want parents to know what they can find when they visit your website.

[00:40:36] Sue: If you go there, there’ll be a button to push Lesson 1. I’m going to go look at it, but it’s a bright button at the top. There’s going to be a little intro video, which I’m committed to not redoing and redoing my video. I’m committed to floundering in front of you. Does that make sense? Because I don’t want you to say, “Oh, look, she’s got her act all together, and she’s telling us what to do.” No, I am still in the learning mode with this project. I really don’t have time to re-edit and re-edit and re-edit.

I’m just going to put it out there and be in the trenches with you. You can watch that or not, because the instructions will be– Then you scroll down to the bottom, and that’s where you would click on the course. You get one at a time, and you do have to sign in. I’m not going to do anything with you. I’m not going to harass you with your inbox with a bunch of stuff. You have to log in to get that. When you get the week done, and you don’t get it done in one day, you take a week, and you begin the process of learning to develop the habit.

I’m not saying it’s going to be easy. I know trying to develop this habit, even if it’s only for a couple of minutes a day, if the first day you’re going to have to read it, know what you’re going to be doing, but it’s not easy. Then I want you to send me feedback. I think I forget what it says there. Send me feedback. When I get your feedback, I want to hear how you did, what you don’t like about it. I want to hear your students and your ideas about how it would be better if. That’s powerful. You’re going to change the world with that.

I want to hear because I don’t know how to be a 13-year-old anymore. I don’t know what it’s like. I need to know what this experience is like and how it could be better. Once you send that to me, I will send you access to the next week. That’s your payment. Your payment is your feedback. I’ve committed this school year to that. I don’t know even what I would charge if I charge at this point. I just want to get it developed. I already know from 30 years of being in this business, art, math, all of that, I can’t do it without you. I can’t learn without you.

[00:43:13] Gretchen: Well, I love the fact that you also have standards notes there for teachers who would need them. This is not just something that is for a parent sitting at the table, but it’s also for a teacher in a classroom trying to uncork the creativity of her students.

[00:43:34] Sue: Or if you’re not a homeschool mom, it’s just going to be observing. You could still do that if your kids are in school. It’s not limited to that. It’s just that–

[00:43:45] Gretchen: I also love the fact that you don’t have to be a kid to do this.

[00:43:50] Sue: Oh, no, you don’t.

[00:43:51] Gretchen: I might have a lot of fun doing this myself, so I’m pretty excited about that.

[00:43:56] Sue: That’s why the couple of people have said, “As adults, we might like doing this.” I’m doing it, and I love it.

[00:44:05] Gretchen: Well, I think one of the things that I always have a challenge with is that blank piece of paper in front of me. I don’t know what to do. Often, I end up just wandering away or doing the same little vine flowers that I’m always used to drawing because I don’t know how to step beyond what I’m used to doing.

[00:44:27] Sue: It’s scary, and there’s still that, even though we’re adults, that fear of failure shows up.

[00:44:33] Gretchen: Well, one of the things you taught me is, “Okay, get behind me. I don’t want to hear that voice. I want to hear only the voice of creativity.” I want to thank you. You’ve got such a busy life going on. I thank you so much for coming to spend this time with me today. This was just marvelous. I want to thank our guests for being here and listening to us today. I hope you found this valuable. I know that this is going to be a key to creativity for so many students.

Whether you are a young person or an adult, this gives you an opportunity to uncork that creativity. I think you’ll find it to be an amazing experience. Thank you for trusting us to come into your living rooms. You can see why I was so excited to have Sue come talk about this. Maybe six or nine months from now, when you’ve got this more down to not a science, but down to a creative endeavor that has a longer game to it, we’ll come back and have another conversation because that would be amazing.

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