[00:00:00] Shelby: The more often that you say, “I’m bad at this, I’m not good at, I can’t, I’m not a math person, I’m not a science person,” the worse off you’re going to be.

[music]

[00:00:21] Gretchen Roe: Shelby, welcome. Please introduce yourself. I could introduce you all day long, but I think I’ll let you do it for yourself.

[00:00:29] Shelby: Hello. My name is Shelby Roe. My official job title is a biological science laboratory technician. I work in toxicology in the molecular biology field for governmental research. I have been in this field going on 11 years now. I’ll be there 12 years. Actually, it’ll be 11 years this May. We’ve been there 11 years now. I started in molecular biology approximately three years ago now. I transitioned into this job not really knowing what I was doing; just happened into it. Yes, it’s been one of the best career moves I’ve ever made. I could talk about it all day long.

[00:01:21] Gretchen: Shelby, I want to start with this conversation a little bit by backing up. You being the kid who brought home every animal she ever found, whether it was furry, feathered, whatever it was, and the fact that you had such a tremendous passion for animals. Would you be kind enough to indulge me a little bit and tell our audience the story of how I was going to get you out of having a pet rat?

[00:01:53] Shelby: I loved animals. I was convinced from a very young age that I was going to be a veterinarian. That was my goal. When I started high school, I decided not to take Spanish, but instead took Latin, because I thought that would help me with all the Latin names of animals, and all the derivatives and all that kind of thing. Yes, when I was 10, I requested that I have a pet rat, because I had done a lot of reading on the various pocket pets that you could have.

I had learned that rats were the most friendly and the smartest, the ones that you could train and have be your buddy and be your friend. My parents were adamantly against this. My mom, in order to deter my determination of having this pocket pet, said, “Okay, fine, you can do that, but you need to write a research paper on why you want a rat and how to care for a rat and all the ways that a rat would add to our household rather than detract. Then you can have a rat.” She took me to the library. I pulled books on all this stuff. I think she thought that would be where it ended.

When I brought her my research paper, my multi-page composition paper, handwritten and cursive, because that’s how we did it back in the day, she realized that she had backed herself into a wall. Very surprisingly, the rats became a big part of our household for many, many years. Genuinely, I would still have rats if my one very sweet dog would not absolutely murder them. Love her, but she would assume that I was keeping them as snacks for her. They were a big part of our life, all from the time I was 10 till I left for college.

[00:04:10] Gretchen: You might have addicted me because what our audience can’t see today is I have two of them in my office here. Rats have been a part of our family. Who knew that they were the best of the pocket pets?

[00:04:23] Shelby: Yes, they truly are.

[00:04:24] Gretchen: Shelby, tell me how you get from going off to college and actually when you left for college, by the time you did that, you said animals were such a huge love for you that you didn’t think you wanted to be a vet anymore. That path changed, and you went to college to major in what?

[00:04:45] Shelby: I went away to college. I had gotten a better foothold in my math and sciences by the time I went away to school. However, I still didn’t feel strongly that I was good at them. I went away to college, and I said I’m going to major in special education because I, like my mom, felt very strongly about children with special needs, about helping those who needed help more than others. One of my best friends when I was growing up was a young boy with Down syndrome. I wanted to give back in that way.

My college journey took a pretty hard left turn because, as I was in school, I was not very far away. I went away for two years to a two-year university out in Missouri, came back home. I was not very far away from my parents in Westminster. They were in Westminster, Maryland, which is about an hour away. My parents were pretty close to me outside of Annapolis. I became fairly unwell. My parents drove up, picked me up. I ended up not continuing school at that point. The hard thing is once you stop school, it’s hard to pick it back up. I was just drifting a little. I was working at Starbucks.

I was a shift manager. I was working quickly through the ranks. I was on my way to become an assistant manager. That life is really hard. I happened to, at the same time, get two different job opportunities, both back in the animal field. I always know that animals are where my heart is. I knew that my path was going to lead me down a path of animal care, basically. Eleven years ago, I started working in research in animal husbandry, doing the enrichment, the care, all the basic medical needs for the animals that we use in research. My job slowly evolved from there.

[00:07:00] Gretchen: We should also say that your first job was being that tech in that office. You walked through the door there and just said, “Can I volunteer?” Then volunteer became an employment situation, did it not?

[00:07:17] Shelby: Honestly, technically, my first job was I happened to have a connection through a friend of a friend. I’m a talker, a yakker by heart. We had a chiropractor that we went to. I talked to Ziroff about loving horses and wanting to be around horses. That’s all I wanted in my life was to see a horse and pet a horse, and be around a horse. He happened to know another patient of his that was seeking assistance with her barn and feeding her horses. Being the fact that I was homeschooled, I had more flexibility.

I started with the blessing of my parents driving an 11-year-old over to a barn about 15 minutes away from our house. I started going over at six o’clock in the morning to feed 27 horses five days a week and help this barn owner with all of her horses. I did it for years. I got horseback riding lessons out of it and got to attend pony camps. I got to lease horses. I just got to be around the animals that I admired and loved so much. Even from a young age, anytime I could thrust myself into a space where animals existed, I was going to do that. Any spot that I could go to, I was going to go to.

The vet’s office that I worked at all through high school was our local veterinarian office that we took our own pets to. One time, I just asked if I could help, if I could volunteer. It ended up being a situation where it was, of course, we can absolutely volunteer. Just again, over and over, just putting myself as much as possible, trying to put myself into the situations where I wanted to be, and my mom pushing me to do so, of course, all through high school. Even somewhat in college, when I came back for breaks, I worked as a receptionist and a veterinary assistant at that vet hospital, just immersing myself in animals and animal care as much as I could.

[00:09:49] Gretchen: Shelby, tell us a little bit since we started this conversation, because Math-U-See was so integral in helping you feel mathematically competent to do the kind of research that you do. Give me a little insight into how you use math in your workplace.

[00:10:08] Shelby: We use math every day. To give a basis of what my job entails is molecular biology encompasses a vast array of things: cells, genetics. I think there was a question that you sent me that said like, “Does it include genetics?” It absolutely does. There’s a lot of experimental work we do encompassing cells and also something called microphysiological systems. That’s often referred to as human on a chip. We create miniature organ systems that function the way that your lung systems would function, your liver systems would function, your kidney systems would function.

To do all of those things, even your base level, like I am making food to feed my cells, you need to know a base level of math to be able to calculate the ratios to feed your cells properly. Your food has a percentage. You need 10% of this portion. You need a 1% amount of antibiotic to keep bacteria away. You need 2% of this certain protein. You need to be able to calculate that in 500 mils of media. To be able to do those calculations is important to be able to do. You can use a calculator.

A lot of times, we set up Excel sheets that do the math for us. If you don’t program those Excel sheets appropriately, then the math is wrong in the first place. There’s a lot of basic-level math. I say a lot of times it’s like it’s just a lot of solving for X. A lot of the things that I think in high school, I said like, “I’m never going to use this,” an argument to say like, “Why am I doing this? I’m never going to use this in real life,” but we do. I think basic understanding of solving for X, and even geometry.

I recently had to have a problem where I was getting the diameter of a rotor because I needed to calculate the diameter plus a spin speed so that I could figure out how to get a different spin speed, all this information. I needed to know what’s the diameter of this rotor? All these different little tiny math things that I learned years and years ago, but need to still stay fresh in your head. I can certainly Google all of these things, but if I don’t have a base understanding, then it’s not going to help me.

[00:13:13] Gretchen: Tell us now, I don’t know how much you can tell us about the kinds of things that you are doing, but on a daily basis, you’re in and out of multiple labs running multiple kinds of experiments. That requires a great deal of fortitude as far as thinking in advance all the things that you have to accomplish. What does a day look like for you?

[00:13:36] Shelby: There’s a lot of different things that you juggle based on what project is going on. Based on what project is happening is what thing I’m going to work on that day. It could be that we have an all-day experiment that we’re going to be doing, where that experiment involves pulling out cells and giving them different doses of a compound, and then putting them back into a special incubator and doing that over and over again.

Whereas some days, I’m just doing maintenance work basically. That would be going in and I’m growing cells in preparation for an experiment, or I’m growing cells to do what’s called banking, because cells are very cool in the fact that they just can grow and proliferate over and over and over again. You can grow them to a point and then take them and split them into multiple dishes, and then grow those dishes, and then split those into multiple dishes, like ad nauseam. That way, I can grow all of those and then freeze them, and then keep them for later when we need them.

We grow something called plasmids, and plasmids are, we have a special type of E. coli that’s not infectious to humans. The way that I best describe it, it’s like DNA surrogacy. These E. coli bacteria grow DNA in these tiny bundles outside the nucleus in these plasmid bundles, and they replicate these plasmids. Once we’ve replicated all of these plasmids, we break them apart and we elute the DNA, and we can use that DNA and we do something called transfecting that into a cell. We’re trying to see like we’re picking apart this very specific DNA and placing it into a specific cell because we’re trying to look for that piece of DNA and how it interacts with that cell.

[00:15:59] Gretchen: Now, is this E. coli that we don’t want in our food, or is this a different E. coli?

[00:16:06] Shelby: Yes and no. It is the same E. coli that we don’t want in our food, but it is a strain that is non-infectious to humans, similar to the way that there are different strains of the flu that are more infectious or less infectious. This strain of E. coli that we’re growing is non-infectious to humans. E. coli grows very well, is very robust. That’s why, go figure, someone found, years and years ago, that this was the way to proliferate these plasmids.

[00:16:48] Gretchen: If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re using the E. coli to create the plasmids, which are what you’re using in the experiments.

[00:16:57] Shelby: Exactly. We use those plasmids, that DNA we’re using. We place it into a cell, which then takes that and basically takes it on in a way that replicates the human body. Whereas the bacteria doesn’t replicate the human body. Then we’re using that to imitate, basically imitate human receptor cells, like a receptor cell that might light up in the brain for different, like if you’ve got a migraine or if you got an allergy, or like what’s the different ways that those receptors light up. That way, we can tell which receptors are having–

[00:17:50] Gretchen: A response?

[00:17:51] Shelby: Exactly, there we go. That way, we can tell which receptors are responding and which aren’t to the experimental compound that we’re working with.

[00:18:01] Gretchen: What is the cycle from the growth of the cell to running a successful experiment? I assume it varies, or can you expect a standard, “This is going to take a week?”

[00:18:13] Shelby: From the growth of the plasmid, the plasmid growths take– they’re an overnight growth and then the elution takes four hours to do. That’s a four-hour process. Then once all of that’s prepped, for the whole experimental test, there’s 314 plasmids that you do. That’s taken us a several months period of time to get that all prepped. Then once it’s all prepared, all the plasmids are ready to go for a little bit of time. The actual full tests that we do, it’s about a week because we have to get the cells that we’re using.

They come out of a freezer, like a deep freeze. It’s like negative 140 degrees Celsius. They come out of a deep freeze. We saw them, we grow them up. We need to proliferate them basically for the full experiment. We need millions of them. We’re growing millions and millions of cells over the course of several days. Then the actual experiment takes three days because you have to get all the cells prepped. Then tou have to place all the plasmids in and let the plasmids settle in overnight. Then you dose with whatever compound you’re looking at. Then the following day, you read everything.

[00:19:55] Gretchen: Then the math begins, right?

[00:19:57] Shelby: Yes, exactly.

[00:19:58] Gretchen: You have to calculate all of this to see if there was a change, right?

[00:20:04] Shelby: Yes, because then you’re calculating statistical significance. You’re calculating your change, if it’s enough of a change that it’s statistically significant, because you have your control and you have your experimental groups. You have your control side, and then you compare your control side to your experimental side. You say like, “Is there a change? Is there enough of a change for us to say, ‘Okay, that’s enough of a change that receptor is being targeted.'”

[00:20:39] Gretchen: Before you find statistical significance, how many times do you run an experiment? I would think you would have to run it more than once.

[00:20:48] Shelby: Yes, usually our experiments are run in triplicate. Everything is run three times. That way, we’re getting enough data that we can say like, “Okay, this has been run three times, and we have enough data to make an average.” To create enough data, it is a significant amount of work.

[00:21:09] Gretchen: Shelby, tell me, how do you have the patience to wait through this whole process as somebody who’s not particularly patient? I’m trying to envision, because this is so deliberative, every step of what you need to do. How do you find that patience?

[00:21:27] Shelby: I think it’s like, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time, because it’s such a large process. It’s just like focus on the next step and the next step and the next step. This process has been going on since February for me. We’re slowly taking off, small bite after small bite after small bite. As someone who’s been in research for a long time, you’re well acquainted with failure. You’re well acquainted with things not working the first time around. Just because you say triplicate doesn’t necessarily mean you just do the experiment three times.

It means three times of an experiment that is functional. Functional in a way that we don’t see the results we were expecting to see, that’s fine. That’s not a problem. If we see results that are far outside the norm of what we expect, then that’s a problem. Then we have to fix something. Then we’re going back and we have to check what we were doing. Like how we might have made a mistake, pipetted something incorrectly. Being acquainted with failure as not an issue, but just a problem to solve. Mistakes as not blame, but how we can repair for the future.

[00:22:57] Gretchen: Does that require a lot of advanced documentation? You would need to almost know how you pipetted everything to know if that was the error, correct?

[00:23:10] Shelby: Yes and no. I think there are some labs depending on where you work. My lab is not one of them that they are very meticulous with the way that they document. We are fairly meticulous with how we document, but not to the level of– it’s called the GLP standards. We do take copious notes. We have lots of– You just do. You just have to take copious notes. Beyond just the notes that you take for your experiment, I take notes for myself.

I’m on my own, taking my own notes for everything that I’m doing, that says like, “Next time we need to make double this amount of solution because we ran out. Next time, I want to make sure that I add extra of this material into my workspace because it was more helpful to have more of this type of thing in my workspace rather than having to go in and out to grab it a bunch of times.” Those kinds of things are just important to just keep track of for me. It’s also just being able to review your own behavior with a lens that is not overly critical, but that is not overly shoving things under the rug, basically.

[00:24:40] Gretchen: You’re not being too casual, but you’re not trying to drive yourself insane.

[00:24:45] Shelby: Exactly.

[00:24:47] Gretchen: The level of meticulousness that you have to have to run these experiments successfully, does that bleed over into the other things that you do, or is Shelby in the lab somebody different than Shelby in the rest of her environment?

[00:25:02] Shelby: I’m a person with ADHD. I also know I’m a person that I’m not a multitasker. This is something that I’ve really liked. It’s hammered home. It’s been hammered home to me this year that I’m not a multitasker. The more I can focus on a singular task and be meticulous with that task, the better off that I am overall. I am fairly meticulous in the things that I do. I like being good at my job. I like having things run well and efficiently.

Honestly, we’ve had several interns come through in the last couple of years, and they always ask me for advice. The biggest piece of advice I always give them is, keep your own notebook, make your own notes, and get really well acquainted with Excel. Because Excel is my very best friend for making tables, for making notes, for organizing things in a way that makes sense. It’s my little best friend for making things, neatening up things, and making things make sense.

[00:26:16] Gretchen: Tell me then, when you step out of the lab, and you’ve been in this very detailed environment, what do you do that’s different? What do you do to refill Shelby’s cup so that Shelby can bring all of her focus to the tasks in the lab? Then how do you find fun?

[00:26:36] Shelby: Trust me, I do plenty outside the lab. I think most people think that I probably do too much. For one, my workplace is great. We really work together so that way we can make the load lighter for each other. I have a really good team. That’s helpful. I also have a really good boss who I can go to and say like, “Hello, I’m overwhelmed. What’s my role here? How do I handle this situation?” He’s really good about helping me out with all of those things.

I think those are really good skills that are hard to develop, but really good for helping the brain process through all of the things. If you’re so busy and stressed in your workplace and you can’t handle any of it, you can’t ask for help, and you can’t have a conversation with your boss, it’s like, what are you going to do? Outside of work, as far as finding fun, I’m a procurer of hobbies, I feel like. I am a backpacker and I plan backpacking trips.

This is backpacking season right now. That’s what I’ll be doing most of the summer. That’s why my head is currently shaved, because it’s too hot to bother with hair right now anyway. I rock climb multiple times a week, indoor rock climbing with my coworkers. I horseback ride. I do something called bike joring with my bonkers husky. It’s basically where she pulls a bike in front of me like a sled dog. She really likes it.

I really like that she’s tired afterwards. If I’m not doing something where I’m actively moving, then I do a lot of like embroidery and like cross stitch and all those types of things. The hobbies abound for me. I probably could sleep more, but I don’t know. I love to keep my brain active. If I’m not watching a documentary of some kind, cross stitching, or something else, then I don’t know what I would be doing.

[00:28:54] Gretchen: Tell me, if you were a student now, a high school student listening to our conversation, what advice would you give them if they thought that pursuing a career like yours might be interesting? What directions would you tell them to go in?

[00:29:15] Shelby: The main thing is telling yourself that you’re bad at something is surefire way to be bad at something. That is a big piece of my advice, and it sounds silly, but the more often that you say like, “I am bad at this, I’m not good at, I can’t, I’m not a math person, I’m not a science person,” the worse off like you’re going to be. When I started doing Math-U-See– the story that I have with Math-U-See was that I struggled my way through Algebra 1, I had to retake it.

I was in geometry, and I was failing. My mom got me Math-U-See geometry, and I started to take it. I was halfway through the year, and so I was going to have to complete a year’s worth of geometry in half a year. I ended up completing a year’s worth of geometry, the honors version, and getting As. Everything just clicked. It was taught in a way that I understood. We kept moving forward with Math-U-See. I took their Algebra 2 class, and then I took all that information and I went to our local community college and I took their intro to math class, and I ended up getting an A.

Then I took their Algebra 2 class, and I ended up getting an A. I went on to college algebra, and I ended up, I think, getting a C in that class, but it was mostly because I didn’t try very hard. Everything made sense to me, and I started saying like, “I think that I’m good at this. I think that I’m good at math. I think that I’m good at science.” Even in college, I did well in chemistry. I did well in my math and sciences classes. It was because I did work hard. I studied hard. Also, because I didn’t perpetuate the notion that we all had. All of us. My mom had it.

All of us had it. We all just said like, “Oh, we’re just not a math and sciences family. We’re just an English family. That’s all.” That’s something that’s really important is just your general mindset around it. Beyond that, I think things that you want to make sure that you study or are aware of, just make sure that your math skills are really honed in. Your base level algebra skills, and that you have a good understanding of your base level, like bio and chemistry skills. Because once you move on to college, things just do get harder.

Just like you spend a lot of time now on school, you spend a decent amount of time now in school, you will spend a lot of time studying science, studying your math homework, doing math problems. I’m doing pre-calculus from Math-U-See right now, for the sheer reason that I want to be able to understand some of the higher-level math that we do. I asked my mom if I could purchase the pre-calculus program through Demme. Math-U-See was the way that I learned well.

It feels hard to specifically study this thing. I think also science is so broad. If there’s something that you really like, you can go in that direction. If you know that you really like zoology, there’s a niche somewhere in zoology for you. If you know that you’re really interested in fish specifically, you don’t have to just study marine biology. There’s so many ways that you can study that involve fish that don’t involve just like studying marine biology specifically.

[00:33:38] Gretchen: Let me ask you another question, Shelby, because I know in your research field, you had to be equally adept in writing, because you do a lot of compositional writing to write up reports and things like that. Tell me a little bit about how the English in you, the English major, English minor in you, gets to play in biological research. Sometimes we think, “Oh, this is all numbers. This is all science,” but it’s not. There’s an equal amount of compositional writing. Give us some insight into that. What do you have to do in your work?

[00:34:16] Shelby: There’s actually a lot of compositional writing. Not only are you sending emails just on a daily basis, and you’re not just like sending emails, casually within your organization, you’re sending formal emails to people that are very important that you want to be able to address formally, and to come across with intelligence with the level of intelligence that you have and the capability that you have.

There’s not just writing where you’re taking the experiment that you’ve done, and you’re telling the world about the experiment that you’ve done, because that’s important. That technical writing is important. Just writing. You can write it informally as a tech report, is what it’s referred to, or you can go so far as to try and get it published in a journal. That type of writing is where you’re basically writing. The same way you would write up an experiment, it’s just more fleshed out, like your goal of the experiment, the materials and method, your actual like how the experiment went, and then discussion of results and conclusion.

Also, we’re writing grants, we’re writing requests for funding, because science is not well funded, and in any capacity, unfortunately. A lot of times, we are writing for requests for funding, where we’re writing proposals for like, “Hey, this is the experiment that we want to do, this is what it would look like, this is how much money we think we would spend doing this experiment.” We’re writing white papers, which are similar to a grant request, just a little bit less fleshed out.

It’s like, “Here’s an idea of an experiment that we might want to do.” All of these have to be well written, formal. Sometimes these white papers are being sent to members of Congress. They have to be well written, have good grammar, have appropriate spelling, and you can’t rely on Microsoft Word to tell you the right ways to– You can’t copy and paste this into Grammarly.

[00:36:47] Gretchen: You’re not going to find some of the language and terminology that you’re using in Grammarly, or Gemini, or ChatGBT, are you?

[00:36:54] Shelby: No.

[00:36:55] Gretchen: You have to know what you want to say and how to say it.

[00:36:59] Shelby: Exactly. Yes, there is a lot more writing than people think there is. Beyond that, even just within our own internal organization, we have internal operating procedures, we have protocols that we write, we have SOPs, so your standard operating procedures. All of those have to be written in a way that is clear and concise, but gives all the information so that any person can take that piece of paper and complete the task required without needing you there.

[00:37:41] Gretchen: All the way back to– I think it was in middle school when you had to write how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

[00:37:48] Shelby: Exactly.

[00:37:49] Gretchen: Starting with that, but you’re now taking it into a scientific environment, and you have to be equally detailed and explanatory.

[00:37:58] Shelby: Trust me, I’ve written out my own internal operating procedures, and then I have taken them and red-penned all over them, because I followed my own procedures, and then realized where I have left holes or left gaps. We’ve done the same thing for our own researchers, where they’ve given us an internal operating procedure, and then we’ve had to write all over it, where we’re missing instructions, we’re missing information, because you have it in your head. You know what you mean when you say, “Turn on shaker plate.” When I say, “When I turn on the shaker plate,” it needs to be shaking at a certain level.

I don’t know what that level is, so I need to know all of the information. Yes, there’s a lot, a lot more writing than people think. It’s all aspects. Just because I say, make sure your base level of your bio and your chemistry doesn’t mean that you get to abandon your English and your spelling and your grammar, too. You do need to know those. Most times in college, you will take a fundamentals of scientific writing class. It is a requirement, I think, for most schools at this point.

[00:39:21] Gretchen: Do you find that when you took that skill, that those skills are now applicable in what you’re doing? Have you gone so far beyond what that was that it’s now an entirely different environment for the writing that you have to do?

[00:39:36] Shelby: I think it’s still applicable. I think most of it still applies to a lot of the things that I’m doing, it’s just more. I do more, and it’s more fleshed out. The base understanding of what I’m doing still, of what that class applied, still is there.

[00:39:56] Gretchen: Shelby, in these last 10 minutes, what is the mostgratifying thing about the work you do?

[00:40:03] Shelby: I get so excited about the work that we do. I get excited about the data that we provide. It is gratifying to be able to talk about the things that we do, the experiments that I’m doing, and to be excited about them in a way that I can’t describe to other people. When I’m explaining experiments, I get choked up. I get goosebumps. I didn’t ever expect those things to happen. By nature, I’m a very pragmatic person.

A job will provide me money to live the life that I want to live, which is why I have plenty of hobbies. I both get to be excited about the things that I do, and also have plenty of hobbies, and have both things be equally fulfilling, it’s very gratifying to me. This was an unexpected change in my career path that was like a switch in the road. It wasn’t expected for me, and so it has been so gratifying. I’m just very grateful for that.

[00:41:15] Gretchen: This might be a loaded question. I’ll apologize in advance.

[00:41:17] Shelby: Yes, it’s okay.

[00:41:18] Gretchen: Where do yourself in five years?

[00:41:21] Shelby: Honestly, I don’t know. I have lots of things coming up in the next six months, in the next year. I see lots of goals outside of work. My place is in the lab. I don’t have major career aspirations to be like a principal investigator doing big research. I really like being a technician who has hands in the lab. I see my researchers that I work underneath get pulled out of the lab to do this upper-echelon administrative-level work. I’m not interested in that. I prefer to be in the lab with my cells, with my organoids, with my microphys systems. That’s where I want to be. I don’t think it’s a low ambition. I think it’s just knowing where I’m happy and what I’m good at.

[00:42:24] Gretchen: Is that because you like seeing the results of the efforts you put in?

[00:42:31] Shelby: Sure. I like seeing the results of the effort that I put in. Also, I like the actual lab work itself.

[00:42:38] Gretchen: Shelby, I want to thank you for your time today. I want to thank you for stepping out of the lab and spending time with us.

[00:42:44] Shelby: Yes, of course.

[00:42:45] Announcer: It’s been a wonderfully enlightening conversation. Of course, I always enjoy spending time with you. This is particularly profitable for me to understand how you approach your work. I think it will be very enlightening for the students who are interested in pursuing this career. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you to our audience today for joining us. We look forward to being invited into your living rooms again in the future. Take care, everyone. Have a wonderful afternoon.

Thanks again for joining us. We’re glad to be a part of your educational community. You can help us grow our community even more by rating, reviewing and subscribing to the show wherever you may be hearing this. Don’t forget that you can access the show notes and watch a recording at demmelearning.com/show, or on our YouTube channel. We’ll see you again next time. Until then, keep building strong foundations for lifelong learning.