[00:00:00] Eva Capps: I think one thing that frustrated me learning was when they’d be like, “You’ve just got to try a little harder.” It’s like, “You don’t understand. I’m trying my hardest right now.” I think that would be the only thing that I would just say is maybe come at it from a different angle, just because when you are trying your hardest and somebody says, “Try a little harder,” it’s like, “I can’t. I’m doing the best I can.”

[music]

[00:00:27] Gretchen Roe: Good afternoon, everyone. This is Gretchen Roe for The Demme Learning Show. I welcome you all today to this very special conversation. Often, as parents, we get to talk about when our kids have challenges in their learning. As parents, it’s a different perspective than it is when we actually get to see it through our children’s eyes.

Eva and Cooper have been voluntold today. They volunteered truthfully. We didn’t totally drag them into this, but we asked them to come and have a conversation with us because we think it’s going to be a different perspective when you hear what it’s like to learn with a challenge. I know I’ve had this conversation innumerable times with my own kids. It’s an entirely different perspective when you’re the one sitting in the seat struggling to pay attention and attend and do all the things necessary to become successfully educated. I welcome the Capps family today. I’m going to let Amanda introduce herself, and then Cooper and Eva will introduce themselves.

[00:01:34] Amanda Capps: Hi, I’m Amanda. I have been with Demme Learning for 16 years this next month. I have pretty much been in a customer service role, but have transitioned into more of a specialized placement and customer support specialist role. I am a second-generation homeschooler. I am a mother of eight, of which two of these kiddos are mine. I’ve graduated two, currently homeschooling six. This is a topic that I think is so critical to talk about. The need is great. I’m really excited to be here.

[00:02:17] Gretchen: Absolutely. I appreciate, Amanda, that you brought this to my attention because often we forget what it’s like to see the world through our kids’ eyes. Cooper and Eva, thank you all so much for being willing to sit here and have this conversation with us today. I’m going alphabetically. Cooper, how about you go first? Tell us a little bit about you.

[00:02:37] Cooper Capps: My name is Cooper. I am 14, and I have been homeschooled my entire life. I like to play pretty much any sport. I’m excited for this interview.

[00:02:52] Gretchen: Well, you’re a golfer and a basketball player, if I remember correctly. You also have a dog, right?

[00:03:00] Cooper: Oh, yes.

[00:03:01] Gretchen: [chuckles] What’s his name?

[00:03:03] Cooper: Cole.

[00:03:04] Gretchen: Cole. Awesome. Awesome. Well, we might talk a little bit more about Cole later. Eva, will you introduce yourself?

[00:03:11] Eva: Hello. My name is Eva Capps. I have been homeschooled my whole life as well. I love baking, reading, doing art, hiking, just really any activity.

[00:03:22] Gretchen: You surprised me when we were talking and getting ready. You said fishing, so what kind of fishing?

[00:03:27] Eva: Fishing, trout fishing. I love trolling. Just really any kind. It’s all fun.

[00:03:33] Gretchen: Awesome. Awesome. I grew up with a dad who was a fisherman. I did everything from little red and white bobbers to fly fishing. It was really fun. That’s amazing. All right, you guys, so let’s get to the meat of this. Eva, as the older of the two siblings, did you first notice that something was different, or did your mom notice for you?

[00:03:58] Eva: I think I noticed that my mom would be like, “Oh, honey, this is a B.” I’d be like, “No, that looks like a D.” I noticed that something was off, but I didn’t know what it was necessarily, or to know that what I was seeing wasn’t correct. I think my mom noticed it as dyslexia and a struggle. I just was assuming that’s how you’re supposed to see stuff.

[00:04:25] Gretchen: I see. In birth order, you’re child number three, right?

[00:04:29] Eva: Yes.

[00:04:29] Gretchen: Do I have this correct? Okay. Your sisters were pretty much typical learners. That had to feel different, knowing that things weren’t as easy for you as you perceived it to be for them. How was that?

[00:04:47] Eva: It was really hard for me, too, because both my older siblings are readers. They read a lot. For me, thinking, “Oh, I’ll hit the age, and I’ll start reading just like them,” and then realizing that it was going to be a lot harder, a lot steeper of a climb, I think it was really hard. It did make it harder to want to read like them. I just kept pushing through, and my mom helped me a lot with it.

[00:05:15] Gretchen: Before I move on and ask Cooper some similar questions, Eva, at some point in time, your mom realized that this had some aspects of vision related to that. How was that to recognize that it wasn’t just dyslexia, but that vision was also a mitigating factor?

[00:05:35] Eva: It was nice to know that I wasn’t going crazy. I wasn’t seeing things. It was just part of something that I’d have to deal with, but it was also just nice to know, like, “Oh, my gosh.” I am seeing things wrong, but it’s normal because of what I have. I’m not the only one, and it’s something that can get better over time, the harder you work at it.

[00:05:59] Gretchen: Was that a weird feeling to recognize that it was something that was outside the bounds of your control?

[00:06:07] Eva: A little bit, yes. I was like, “Well, why do I have this?” I think after talking with my mom and my dad, who also struggles with dyslexia, it really just helped, and something that I knew would get better and easier over time.

[00:06:22] Gretchen: Cooper, how about you? Now, your mom and dad had already gone through Eva, so she paved the way a little bit for you, but it’s different when you’re a boy. How was it for you?

[00:06:35] Cooper: I feel like it was frustrating trying to read a book in front of people because you’d get something wrong, and then they’d correct you. I don’t know. It just seemed annoying in a way, but then again, it’s what needed to happen, I guess.

[00:06:49] Gretchen: Did you feel like, “Oh, I just don’t want to do this”?

[00:06:53] Cooper: Yes. For a while, I just didn’t read at all.

[00:06:57] Gretchen: I would imagine that you probably got pretty creative in trying to step around reading. Was it because it made you feel physically sick?

[00:07:07] Cooper: It more just frustrated me to the point where I wouldn’t want to do it. After I broke my leg and had literally nothing to do, I pushed myself through and was able to figure out how to actually read, and I got it done.

[00:07:24] Gretchen: You spent quite a bit of time on the couch with that broken leg, too. You were trapped, right? [laughs]

[00:07:31] Cooper: Yes.

[00:07:33] Gretchen: Now, you, too, had vision as some mitigating factors, right, if I remember this correctly? How was it to go and recognize that everybody else in the family didn’t see the way you did?

[00:07:46] Cooper: It was interesting. One thing that made it much more doable was me and Eva did vision therapy at the same time. The second time she did it, and the first time I did it. We basically just did it to each other, which was quite nice. We would just talk about it and stuff. I don’t know. It just was a lot easier always having somebody there.

[00:08:09] Gretchen: Having someone who understood what you were going through.

[00:08:11] Cooper: Yes.

[00:08:12] Gretchen: I bet that created a really different bond between the two of you.

[00:08:16] Cooper: Yes.

[00:08:17] Gretchen: What’s one thing you wish your parents understood? Now, you guys are old enough to be in co-op situations and stuff like that. If you could convey to someone, what would you like them to know about what it is to live with dyslexia?

[00:08:35] Cooper: Don’t give up and push through because the harder you do, the easier it’ll become to read. Even though it starts out really, really hard to read, just keep reading, and it’ll get easier.

[00:08:48] Gretchen: Do you read for pleasure now, or do you read just what you need to read?

[00:08:52] Cooper: It depends on what I have to do for school that day. If I have to do a lot of reading for my school, usually, I just read for what I have to read because it gets really tiring really fast. If I don’t have to read a lot for school, I’ll try to read for pleasure.

[00:09:06] Gretchen: Now, did you guys go through vision therapy before puberty or after puberty? Maybe I need to ask Amanda that. Did you recognize that they needed vision therapy before puberty?

[00:09:17] Amanda: Eva was about six the first time that she went through vision therapy. I want to say she was probably 11 or 12 the second time. She was beginning to definitely exhibit signs of puberty. I think for Cooper, both times were a little bit pre. It was one of those things we did the first round. Then our practitioner, every six months, is re-evaluating and making sure that what they were doing and what they were remedying was sticking.

We started to see a little bit of slip. That was when we decided to go ahead and do the second round. At one point, I actually had three children in vision therapy all at the same time because their younger sister, Ellen, was also– Interestingly, you mentioned about Eva, but even though my oldest two daughters were good readers, where I noticed it with my daughter, Cassie, my oldest, was for handwriting.

I immediately noticed something was off. There were weird spaces and stuff happening. She strictly had a convergence deficiency. After a round of vision therapy and some glasses, she was good to go and never had another issue with it. Elsie is the second-born. She’s the only one so far, and my younger ones that have not had vision therapy. She does wear glasses. She wears corrective lenses.

[00:10:49] Gretchen: Eva, same question to you. What’s the one thing you wish parents or adults in your sphere of influence would recognize as far as dyslexia is concerned?

[00:10:59] Eva: I think one thing that frustrated me learning was when they’d be like, “You just got to try a little harder.” It’s like, “You don’t understand. I’m trying my hardest right now.” Nothing against them. I get that they were just trying to help. That was one thing that was a little frustrating. It was like, “Hey, I’m trying.” [chuckles] I think that would be the only thing that I would just say is maybe come at it from a different angle, just because when you are trying your hardest and somebody says, “Try a little harder,” it’s like, “I can’t. I’m doing the best I can.”

[00:11:30] Gretchen: Sure. That’s really hard to know you’re doing the best you can and have someone in your circle of influence perceive that you could do just a little bit more. That would make me personally really frustrated. I would imagine it would be frustrating for you guys as well. What kind of accommodations do you guys use? Do you guys do audiobooks? Do you do text-to-speech, things like that?

[00:11:54] Eva: Yes, we do a lot of audiobooks. With audiobooks, I can retain the books a lot better. I tend to do a lot of audiobooks, and then we do a lot of writing projects to do on the computer because we can spellcheck it. That’s about it. I like to try to push myself as much as I can without the help because I think it’s what’s helped me get to the place I am. When I am like, “Okay, I really do struggle in this area,” so I will take a little bit of help in that area. For the most part, I really do try to be self-reliant just because you never know when you’re not going to have those tools.

[00:12:30] Gretchen: Sure. That’s a really good point. How about you, Cooper? Do you use audiobooks?

[00:12:35] Cooper: Yes, I was going to say, I do a lot of audiobooks. I try not to use text-to-speech, but if I really just can’t figure out a word, I’ll use it. That’s about it.

[00:12:44] Gretchen: One of the questions that was asked by one of our registrants was, how does spelling work for you all? Even my 27-year-old son, who has dyslexia, although he can spell, he can tell as soon as he’s getting fatigued because his spelling just drops off a cliff. Is that what you guys– or is it something different for you all?

[00:13:05] Cooper: I feel like when you are at the end of your school and you choose to do spelling last, it definitely is a lot harder to do spelling.

[00:13:16] Gretchen: Once you’re tapped out, then you’re really tapped out.

[00:13:19] Cooper: Yes.

[00:13:20] Eva: Spelling has definitely been my biggest challenge. I will say, as the day wears on, I definitely will notice. I’m like, “Oh, whoa, I did not spell half those words correctly.”

[00:13:28] Gretchen: Can you recognize when you’ve spelled a word wrong?

[00:13:31] Eva: Sometimes, yes. A lot of the time, my mom will be like, “You spelled that how it sounds, and that’s not how you spell that.” [chuckles] A lot of times, I’ll just guess on how it sounds, and then that will be wrong. Sometimes I can pick it up, sometimes I can’t.

[00:13:51] Gretchen: In your routines, though, I assume that when you’re trying to get thoughts down on paper, you’re not focused on spelling. You’re focused on getting your thoughts on paper, right?

[00:14:01] Cooper: Yes.

[00:14:01] Eva: Yes.

[00:14:02] Amanda: They definitely learned the value of having a supportive editor. While they do attempt to self-edit, that is just always probably going to be an area of weakness. I think we’ve all accepted that. We work together to make it successful. Again, a lot of their writing they do on the computer because they can utilize tools in writing specifically that supports them and helps them to feel more successful.

[00:14:37] Gretchen: Cooper, you said something about being embarrassed to read out loud. I know that one of my dyslexic kids said that was the hardest thing about Boy Scouts was there were times where the scoutmaster would point at him and say, “Read this thing.” He would be like, “Oh, no, I don’t want to read out loud.” Has dyslexia affected your friendships or your participation in things like that?

[00:15:01] Cooper: I wouldn’t say it’s affected my friendships. I would say, in a way, it’s made them stronger, I guess. I would tell them, and then they’d be like, “Okay.” Then, a lot of times, when we do something, they would read the stuff.

[00:15:13] Gretchen: They protect you?

[00:15:14] Cooper: Yes, pretty much. [chuckles]

[00:15:15] Gretchen: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. That speaks to your ability to cultivate friendships. One, you were willing to be honest enough with your friends, but, two, that you have found some pretty good friends that will support you, which is pretty cool. How about you, Eva?

[00:15:31] Eva: Yes, I would say, for a while there, it was really embarrassing to be like, “Oh, yes, I cannot read nearly as fast as you guys, and I can’t keep up with that.” For a long time, there was that, a wall there when I made friends. I didn’t want to have to be put in those awkward positions where you’re like, “Oh,” but then, as I got older and realized that everybody has weaknesses and challenges in their life, and when we’d start off the bat, I’d just be like, “I really struggle to read.”

I find it rather embarrassing, so if we could just not have those. Then they were super supportive and always really sweet about it, and always took their time whenever I needed to read something, and were super patient. I feel like it did make friendships a lot stronger and made it easier to know who was a really good friend and who wasn’t.

[00:16:22] Gretchen: Okay, so that’s an interesting observation, because if someone was going to give you a hard time, then really, they weren’t in your court, right? Tell me, what is the biggest misconception that you guys think people have about dyslexia? I think I know what your answer is going to be, but I’m really interested to hear you guys say this.

[00:16:41] Cooper: It is a learning disability, but not to the point that people dramatize it to.

[00:16:46] Gretchen: How about you, Eva? What do you think?

[00:16:47] Eva: I would just say the one misconception I see a lot is that you don’t know as much or learn as much as other people. I think that’s entirely wrong because I find that because I’ve had to work harder, it almost helps you learn just as much, if not a little bit more, because you know how to work just a little bit harder and know how to push yourself just that much harder than a normal person would have to. I think that is one thing is a lot of times when a kid’s diagnosed with dyslexia, it’s like, “Oh, I’m not near as smart as everybody else now,” but that’s not true at all.

[00:17:24] Gretchen: One of the things I think that is really interesting is the recognition that people with dyslexia tend to be actually higher in their capacities to absorb new information and their ability to assimilate that information in a way that once you’ve learned it, you’re not going to forget it. You’ll be able to rely on that information for a very long time. Intellectually, we find that it’s kids in the top end of that spectrum who tend to struggle with dyslexia. I’m proud of you guys for hanging in there because it’s really easy for society to dismiss you when you don’t learn like everybody else does. Tell me what changes y’all’s perspective in your lives outside of school because of dyslexia.

[00:18:22] Eva: It’s given me a lot more patience with people. When somebody’s struggling, it’s given me just, I think, a whole other level of patience with somebody because I can relate to that. I know what it’s like to really struggle with something. I think it’s given me the opportunity to be really patient with people and kind and gentle towards people, just because I can relate to it and understand it in a way that some people want it.

[00:18:57] Gretchen: Interesting. Oh, you’re going to make me cry. Cooper, what do you think?

[00:19:01] Cooper: Outside of school? I would agree with Eva for sure on that one. I don’t know how to describe it.

[00:19:08] Amanda: I see them breaking things down and explaining things better to their younger siblings, having more patience. One of the ways that this really shows up in our family, and I know you guys will agree with this, is cooking, because there have been recipes that have been complete disasters because of misinterpreted information.

[00:19:32] Gretchen: I don’t have dyslexia, but occasionally, I roll through a recipe too quickly. I have done some interesting things. Doubling the baking powder is not always a good plan. [laughs]

[00:19:43] Amanda: Right. It’s things like Cooper just said, don’t put two tablespoons of baking soda, recognizing that it was a teaspoon. They get all the ingredients out up front. They’re scanning that recipe more than once, and they may have me, “Is this one-and-a-half cups or one–” I can’t think of a perfect example right now where something got misrepresented, but it has definitely happened. I noticed they’re hyper-vigilant about making sure that they are understanding the process, making sure they are processing the information correctly, because they can’t really trust themselves necessarily.

[00:20:35] Gretchen: Except that, here, Eva has taken this skill and become quite a proficient baker. Not only have you become a proficient baker, but you’ve become a gluten-free baker, which means you have to adapt recipes. Do you make your own recipes?

[00:20:51] Eva: A lot of times, I will find one recipe for a base recipe, and then just merge that into a bunch of different recipes. Even now, after baking a long time, I usually read the ingredient list four or five times to be like, “Okay, this is how much of everything I need to be putting in there, and just memorize it.” That way, I know when I look at it, I’m like, “Oh, that doesn’t look right.” I know to reread it again.

[00:21:17] Gretchen: Interesting. Okay, that makes a difference as well for you in the preparation process. It’s interesting that you guys get everything out and prepare in advance. Do you do that with your academics as well?

[00:21:31] Cooper: I just have all of my books on a shelf, and then I just take all my books and just set them where I’d be in school.

[00:21:38] Gretchen: You don’t have to leave. They’re all there with you. Do you guys find that you need to take more breaks? Do you need to do school in smaller increments?

[00:21:48] Cooper: Usually, for the smaller subjects like math and–

[00:21:52] Gretchen: Grammar?

[00:21:53] Cooper: Yes, grammar book. Usually, I can do those two, and then I don’t have to take a break. Usually, I can do two subjects and then take a break, unless I have to do two reading subjects back-to-back.

[00:22:06] Amanda: Cooper actually is very naturally strong in math. That has always been his area of strength, and he enjoys math a lot. That’s why I think sometimes he will gravitate towards those subjects that are easier first, which is completely understandable. Eva will tend to wait until the last because I highly suspect some dyscalculia as well. Math is definitely not her favorite subject or her strong suit.

[00:22:36] Gretchen: Now, wait a minute. Let’s be fair here, though. You could not be a successful baker if you didn’t have a pretty solid grasp of mathematics. [chuckles] Everything would be a disaster, and it’s not.

[00:22:48] Eva: Definitely, I have a good grasp on math. I just don’t enjoy it. [chuckles]

[00:22:52] Gretchen: We are twin daughters of different mothers in that, so I’m right there with you. We actually had a really good question that I wanted to ask you guys. This was a parent asking this question. How can a parent help? What would make it easier from a parent’s perspective? What do you wish your parents knew to make it easier for you all?

[00:23:15] Cooper: One thing that really frustrated me when I was trying to read a book with my parents and stuff was I would say the word, mispronounce it, and then they would immediately, as soon as that, correct me when I knew I could figure it out after saying it a couple of times. If I really needed help, I would ask for it. Do you see what I’m saying?

[00:23:44] Gretchen: What you’re saying is don’t be so quick to correct you.

[00:23:47] Cooper: Yes, please, [chuckles] that’s what– yes.

[00:23:50] Amanda: Allow processing time. That was something that I had to hear and accept from my child and be like, “Oh, okay, this is a processing thing, and you need the time and the dignity to process.”

[00:24:05] Eva: I think just, overall, you, as the parent, maybe understand that it’s going to take a little longer than with the average person, but it doesn’t mean that we’re not getting it or we’re not getting the same amount of education from it. It’s just going to take longer because it takes me a good two to three minutes longer to read than my sisters do. It takes me longer to do math problems than Cooper does. Yes, it’s just you have to understand that the whole process is going to take longer. I’d just say, have patience, lots and lots of patience.

[00:24:44] Gretchen: One of the things that I learned with my dyslexic kids is when I asked them a question, I had to give them more space before they could answer me from that question. Do you all find that to be an important thing as well?

[00:24:59] Eva: Yes, I would think so. I think, yes, just giving them a little time to think and process about it. Yes, I think that is individual on the cake. I feel like I can process and think and respond to something pretty fast. When it’s a written-down problem, or I have to read a problem, then it’s going to be a lot longer. It’s going to take me more time.

[00:25:25] Gretchen: We’ve got a lot of people here today, and I know you guys are really interested in this subject, likely because you’re living with someone who has dyslexia. When you have this as a greater burden for learning, it doesn’t mean you can’t learn. It just means we as parents have to address the learning capacities differently. When you’re a firstborn like Amanda is and an only like I am, we need to cultivate the art of patience to be a little bit more patient for that.

[00:26:01] Amanda: I think the most important thing that I have digested or that I have come to know and witness and hold space for is the fact that their IQ is very high. The intelligence factor, these kids, these adults, they’re so intelligent, but where they struggle is to show that in their skills. Recognizing that tension and where that frustration lives and why has been vital to being able to not care about grade level and to relax and to realize this isn’t a matter of intelligence. This is a struggle with believing that academics and academic prowess has to look a certain way.

[00:27:01] Gretchen: That’s a good way to put it. I like the fact that you said “tension” because there is a certain degree of tension in knowing that you know, but not being able to necessarily display that you know. That becomes a little bit more difficult. I want to ask both of you. What is your preferential learning style? Eva, you said you love audiobooks, and you retain a lot of that. Are you an Audible learner, or what is your preference when you learn something new?

[00:27:32] Eva: I think definitely, for the most part, Audible is the best. A lot of times, if I have a problem, I really can’t work out. If I’ll just say it out loud or Mom will say it out loud, and I can just answer out loud, it’s a lot better than having to sit there and all process it, like take in the information, and then process it all. Yes, I would think very more auditory processing. A lot of times, if it’s easy reading or I’m just reading history and stuff, I can do that pretty easily. Just take it in. For the most part, I’d say auditory.

[00:28:10] Cooper: When I’m reading a book, it definitely is a lot harder to retain what you’ve just read. Usually, I have to read the sentence two to three times over before I actually get the full sentence because it’s a challenge to read that you’re so focused on getting the words right the first time that you have to go over it a couple of times to get the context.

[00:28:34] Gretchen: Sure, that makes sense. When you’re learning something new, what is your preference? Is it your preference that someone read it to you, or is it your preference that you read it yourself?

[00:28:44] Cooper: I prefer Audible, or when our tutor reads it something from WriteShop to us, I prefer it like that.

[00:28:54] Gretchen: One of my dyslexic kids, from observing him, I would have said he was a kinesthetic learner. It wasn’t until he was an adult that he was like, “Oh, no, I’m an auditory learner.” I would never have defined that by watching him that he was an auditory learner. Interestingly, now, he’s 27, but occasionally, I’ll hear him talking out loud in his room. I realize that he’s reading directions to himself. He’ll read them out loud so that he makes sure he hears them correctly. Here’s a good question. What do you guys think? What has worked best for you all for grammar and for writing? You don’t have to give corporate answers here. Just tell me what’s worked for you guys.

[00:29:42] Amanda: They were older. They were on the older end of things, but I decided I really liked the way that analytical grammar taught diagramming. I liked the way that it broke it down. They have done the entire analytical grammar program, and they are currently doing the high school reinforcements. Cooper is not a huge fan of the literature-based ones because their tutor is making them learn outside of what the program is reviewing. She’s making them actually learn about the authors and give her factoids about something that you would want to know about their lives. That’s a little bit more of a deep dive than Cooper’s really excited about. He’s doing it, and he’s doing well. I feel like it has worked well for you guys.

[00:30:36] Cooper: That is one thing that I will say, as far as when you have dyslexia, our tutor, she’ll tell us. She pushes us. She doesn’t make it necessarily so difficult, it’s almost impossible to do, but she doesn’t go easy at all. That’s one thing I feel like people need is to be pushed. If you’re not getting pushed, you’re not actually learning anything. You’re just learning the same stuff. Does that make sense?

[00:31:07] Gretchen: Sure. That’s such an interesting observation because what you’re saying is that push helps.

[00:31:14] Cooper: Yes, a lot.

[00:31:16] Eva: If I wouldn’t have been pushed, I wouldn’t have pushed myself. I know for a fact, I would not be where I am today. I think that is a lot of the issue is these people with dyslexia and all sorts of learning challenges immediately want to take the easy way out or the–

[00:31:34] Gretchen: They want the accommodations.

[00:31:36] Eva: They want the accommodations. I’m not saying the accommodations are wrong. I use them myself, but I push myself to the limit first. Our tutor pushes us to the limit first. I think that’s really important because it’s helped me to be able to be where I am and be confident in what I’ve already learned. I think without the push and without the struggling, I definitely would not be here, and probably would still be crying if I had to do math.

[00:32:05] Gretchen: [laughs] Since every kid’s experience is different, are there things that you gravitate toward as far as writing is concerned? Are there things that, if you had a writing assignment, you wouldn’t mind writing about, or is everything just a heavy lift when it comes to compositional writing?

[00:32:26] Cooper: If you have the choice to choose the topic, choose something that you’re interested in, because if you’re interested in it, the odds are better that you’re going to write deeper and better about it. If I’m writing something, I will whisper the letters, sometimes incorrectly, most of the time correctly, to myself so I can hear myself saying the letters to where I know where they go.

[00:32:49] Gretchen: Oh, so you’re actually dictating to yourself as you’re writing?

[00:32:54] Cooper: Yes, like T-H-E, space, whatever else.

[00:33:02] Gretchen: Cooper, that’s an interesting thing. I want to ask you about this because your mom can tell you. We often encounter kids with dyslexia. When we make that suggestion, boys in particular are like, “Oh, no, I’m not going to say nothing out loud.” How did you get over that?

[00:33:19] Cooper: I feel like at first, it was like, “I don’t want to,” because in case I say it wrong, but then I accepted that it’s good to be corrected. Even if you do say it wrong, sometimes you can even catch yourself, which always feels nice to catch yourself when you’re doing that. It definitely helps. You can see the letter in your head as well, and then you can see the full word.

[00:33:44] Gretchen: How is handwriting for the two of you? A lot of dyslexics really struggle with handwriting.

[00:33:49] Cooper: My handwriting sucks.

[00:33:51] Gretchen: [laughs] Well, at least you’re honest about it.

[00:33:56] Cooper: I try my best.

[00:33:57] Amanda: From a mom’s perspective, it’s legible. I can read it. He’s definitely not doctor-level, where you can’t decipher it unless you’re a pharmacist-type situation. With all things, focusing on proper letter formation, we’ve done the spelling you see. We’ve done the analytical grammar. We’re doing the WriteShop. Having good core curriculums that really build skills and focus on correct skills is huge to their success.

We have always implemented multisensory. We have really focused on literature-rich programs, but where they can listen to the books. If the reading itself gets arduous, there’s ways to get all of that in, and their personalities are just– I don’t know. It’s a lot of fun. I think one of the things that they both do well is not– I don’t want to say making fun of themselves, but being able to be like, “Oh, wow, I mispronounced that,” or “I really misspelled that.”

They’re very open to accepting correction because they’ve seen the fruit of it. They’ve had enough time in it that they’re seeing those positive results. They all realize that none of us are judging them. We’re all in their corner. We are supporting them. We love them. We want them to realize their potential and get whatever that looks like for each of them as far as they can go, and that they are not limited by this. They are not limited by this.

[00:35:55] Gretchen: I know that both of you have a pretty good sense of humor. Do you think that sense of humor has been honed in the fact that you don’t take yourself too seriously?

[00:36:04] Eva: I think it definitely helps. There was a time not that long ago, I was reading something, and it was Chicago. I read it “[mispronounced] Chicago.” Everybody just started cracking up, but it wasn’t like, “Oh, don’t make fun of me.” It was like, “Oh, my gosh. That was hilarious. How could I mess that up?”

[laughter]

[00:36:22] Eva: You have to make light of it.

[00:36:26] Gretchen: I think it also creates in you all a resiliency and a persistence. You guys have had to work a lot harder to be where you are academically. A lot of people would have given up where you are, but neither one of you have. That says a lot to your characters.

[00:36:43] Cooper: I feel like if we didn’t have our tutor and I hadn’t broken my leg, I would not be where I am today.

[00:36:50] Gretchen: Really? That broken leg helped affirmatively?

[00:36:56] Cooper: Because I had nowhere to go or do anything, so it basically forced myself to do school way more than what I would usually do.

[00:37:08] Amanda: I think his tutor really took that opportunity to put that in front of him, like, “Hey, you could sit all day, and it’s summertime, and you could play video games as much as your parents will allow you, because I am not just one to allow unlimited gameplay.”

[00:37:29] Gretchen: Oh, imagine that.

[laughter]

[00:37:33] Amanda: She just said, “This is a defining moment. This is an opportunity. What are you going to choose to do?” If you are literally stuck on a couch and you cannot– because Cooper is a very active kid. He does enjoy being outside and running and playing. He lost a lot of that ability because he actually ended up breaking his leg back-to-back. Twice because boys will be boys. [laughs]

[00:38:01] Cooper: Second time was almost worth it.

[00:38:03] Gretchen: [laughs]

[00:38:03] Amanda: It was almost worth it. He had quite a stint of downtime.

[00:38:10] Gretchen: I want to ask you guys. You all both have a tutor who works with you on language arts things. You guys are homeschooled kids. A lot of people in the homeschool world would say, “Shame on your mom for getting a tutor,” but this has been a positive experience. I would never say that. I think you do what’s best for each kid in any circumstance. How has that been having a tutor to be accountable to as opposed to it being your mom?

[00:38:42] Cooper: I feel like our mom is always so busy in her office doing work that it would be– In the Eureka House, it was always frustrating trying to do school because she’d get a call right in the middle of something. Having Sharon definitely has helped because she can come on Monday mornings and Tuesday mornings on occasion, but she can lay out the work, and then we know what to do from there. Originally, she didn’t lay out a whole lot of work. We would just work with her until we’ve got to the point where we can be self-reliant. Is that the right word? Self-reliant, yes.

[00:39:16] Amanda: It’s been a process. It’s been a good process because there have been situations where maybe, “Oh, gee, I forgot, and I didn’t get that assignment done.” She’s like, “All right. Well, now, you’ve got two. You’ve got the work you had before. You’ve got the work now,” and having that accountability that is not coming from your parent. Then also realizing my own limitations of, yes, I only have so much time. They are three and four [laughs] out of eight. There’s only so much of me to go around. Then what would you say?

[00:40:00] Eva: I would just simply say, I don’t think there’s any shame in the homeschool world of getting a tutor because, from a kid’s perspective, it’s way different getting taught and being held accountable by somebody other than your parents. For me, it was like, “Oh, well, if I didn’t get exactly what my mom told me to get done, yes, it’s my mom’s.” Then with a tutor, it was like, I’m the kind of person who I don’t want to let anybody down. I want to do my hardest.

Then, when I wouldn’t get an assignment done because I just had poor time management, she would be like, “All right. Well, you have to deal with the consequences. Now, you’re doubled up. Now, you’re going to be stressed out about it, but that’s on you.” It just kicked you in the butt a little bit, but it was a very eye-opening experience, and how life’s going to be with you having a boss and stuff. If you don’t get your stuff done, you have to deal with that consequence. I think having a tutor did really help with that and helped me, time management, even with the struggles I have, figure out how to get everything done.

[00:41:11] Gretchen: I like what you said about– it’s teaching you that accountability. How do you all foresee dyslexia playing out in the adult world for you all in the work world? Will it make you a more diligent employee? Will it make you a more careful employee or what?

[00:41:33] Cooper: Personally, I’ve always wanted to own my own business, but until I can get to that point, since me and Eva both hold ourselves accountable for everything, I feel like it’ll make us better workers and stuff. I feel like it will definitely be a challenge, but in a good way, if that makes sense.

[00:41:54] Gretchen: No, it’s interesting that you should say that, Cooper. My 27-year-old just incorporated his own business about two weeks ago because he said, “I know how I work. I know my processing capacities. I know that if I’m responsible for myself as a business owner, I can be successful.”

[00:42:11] Eva: Yes, because I know myself and just how hard I’ve worked, I know when I go into a job or a field, I can work just as hard as I did at school and everything else. I can be a lot more patient with myself, but I also think, yes, we’ve just been raised to be accountable for what you’ve done. Yes, I think there will be some struggles. Like Cooper said, I think it’ll be good. I think it’ll be good. It’s just a new adventure and a new learning curve that you have to overcome that everybody does. Yes, I think it’ll be good.

[00:42:51] Gretchen: I want you all to think about this question for a minute. What advice would you give to the parents of a student with dyslexia? What do you wish other dyslexic kids’ parents knew that would benefit their kids?

[00:43:11] Eva: When your kid is saying, “Oh, this is too hard. I won’t be able to do this, I think,” and it’s in the motherly instinct to be like, “Oh, well, they’re really struggling with this, and I don’t want to see my child in this situation of pain and discomfort,” we’ll pull back on it, whereas I’m so thankful for my mom and my dad. You’ve got to help them push through that. You’ve got to not come back on it, not make it easier.

I think you have to help them get over it and get over that wall or whatever, just because I think that’s what’s helped me the most is knowing that’s how far I’ve come, so I know I can go way farther. I think that’s really important for the parent to be like, just fight that instinct of like, “I’ll make it easier for your kids so you don’t have to watch them be uncomfortable and everything else,” but I think it’s important that you help them and be there with them the whole time to help them get over and push through what’s being hard and uncomfortable.

[00:44:19] Cooper: I feel like even if it takes them a little bit longer to do something, that’s completely fine in my opinion. I don’t know. I was going to say the same thing Eva said, but have a little more patience with your child, even if it takes them 15, even 30 minutes longer to do something. Try and set a goal for stuff, because if you don’t have a goal for anything, you’re never going to look at the big picture further down the road.

Every single, what did we say, six months? Six months, we make goals to be done with X amount of work or even books of school. It always feels good to meet those goals or even go over and beyond those goals. It always feels really good to do that. I feel like when you don’t have goals, and you get to those places, it doesn’t feel as good to complete that, if that makes sense.

[00:45:32] Gretchen: No, I understand. Tell me a little bit more about that goal-setting. Is that something you initiate, or is that something your parents initiate for you?

[00:45:41] Cooper: Actually, that was our tutor. Eva, me, and our tutor, we do goal–

[00:45:46] Amanda: They have a planning. Roughly, every six months, they say, “Okay, this is what we’ve accomplished so far. This is where we want to be in the next six months. How do we have a plan to get there?”

[00:46:04] Cooper: Sure.

[00:46:06] Gretchen: Amanda’s asked a really good question. Another Amanda here. She says, “Is it better for short-term goals or long-term goals?” You all set a six-month goal, but then are there smaller incremental goals?

[00:46:17] Cooper: It depends on where we’re at in a book, because if we’re three-quarters of the way through a book after we get to the goal and we don’t quite necessarily make the goal, or we did, but we’re almost done with this book, we’ll set a shorter-term goal to finish up these specific books, I feel like, even to meet those shorter-term goals. Even if you don’t complete the goal, just to get it done, either way, it feels better, I guess.

[00:46:49] Eva: Yes, I think short- or long-term goals, I think both are equally important because, yes, we’ll do our January 1st, or whenever we started school, we did our long-term goal for the next three or six-ish months. Then, when the holidays hit, it gets really busy. You’re like, “Well, I’m not going to have as much time.” We’ll do a two-week goal between Thanksgiving and Christmas that we have to have all the stuff done between this two-week goal. We do vary on how long and how short the goals are. I think either way is just as important. It just depends on what you think you can get done in those times.

[00:47:29] Cooper: I feel like if you don’t have a lot of stuff going on in your summer, doing school through the summer, even if you don’t do school on Fridays and you pull back a little bit and you just do it lighter, doing that extra school through the summers is so nice because it definitely helps with being able to graduate early if that’s what you’re wanting. It also helps because during the holidays, you can take longer time off if you need to, if that makes sense.

[00:47:56] Gretchen: Sure. Actually, Amanda asked a really interesting question. She said, “If kids have dyscalculia, it affects their sense of time.” Do you all have challenges? I know that my two boys who have dyslexia can’t estimate time, how long a task will take, or how long it will be until something happens. My husband, who has dyslexia, has the same challenge. I get to be the timekeeper for the family. Is that way for you all, or can you estimate time?

[00:48:25] Eva: I think so, yes. Definitely, at the beginning, it was really hard to do because our tutor has been really strict on time management. She’s talked a lot about time management to us because it’s something you use your entire life. I will say in the beginning there, I really, really, really struggled with the time management. I’m like, “Oh, it’ll be 15 minutes.” Then 40 minutes later, I’m like, “Oh, my gosh. I’ve completely run out of time.”

It was a really big struggle. I still definitely struggle with it. I’ll blink and be like, “Well, that was only 10 minutes ago.” Mom will be like, “No, that was an hour ago.” I’m like, “Oh, okay.” I feel like, as I’ve worked on it and as we’ve worked on the time management and everything, I really have gotten better about it. It’s only on a rare occasion when I don’t care that much. I just let something slide, or I’ll be like, I’ll not do my time management very well.

[00:49:23] Gretchen: I love it that you’re so honest in what you’re saying. When you don’t care, you don’t manage your time as well. That’s a very true statement for all of us. [chuckles]

[00:49:32] Cooper: I definitely feel like time management is one of the most more important things as far as school is concerned. Every morning before we do our school with our tutor, she’ll do words of wisdom. We’ll just pick one random word that could mean a lot of different things, like time management, for example, or what’s another one we’ve done?

[00:49:59] Eva: We’ve done discipline.

[00:50:01] Cooper: Discipline, patience, just those things, and then we talk over them for about the first 30 minutes. Then we get into our school, and we can think about that stuff while we do our school and stuff. I feel like that definitely helps. The time management one was probably one of my more favorite things. We’ve done time management three or four different times. You can do the same thing multiple times. When you redo them, you can learn and see where you’ve come, like how far you’ve come from those things. It’s really nice to be able to do those things before school.

[00:50:32] Amanda: I think the other thing that I would encourage parents is I think we tend to get so focused on academics because that’s where the wheels come off, and things really struggle. This is a full person. They are full people. They are going to have to navigate a 24-hour day. They are going to have to have life skills. They’re going to have to have work ethic.

There’s so much more to both of these kids than their academics or their academic abilities, and so recognizing that and the value in investing in their character, in their disciplines, in the things that are going to make them successful people. We know, and we read articles all the time because it’s coming out right now, that children who are resilient have the best outcomes. The ones who can sit in uncomfortable, hard things.

What’s harder than struggling with reading or struggling with writing, or trying to find ways to express yourself because you know you can and you should be able to? I think it’s really important to remember and keep the big picture in mind. I think that’s one thing as a second-generation homeschooler, that has been easier for me because I’m not trying to duplicate school at home. We’re homeschoolers, and there’s a big difference.

[00:52:02] Gretchen: Okay, you guys, I cannot believe this conversation has gone this quickly. Before we finish, Eva and Cooper, I’m going to ask both of you. One of you gets to think about this, and one of you has to go first. What’s the one thing you wish families would take away from our conversation, the one thing you wish they knew about living with dyslexia?

[00:52:25] Cooper: Not to give up and to push through and set those goals.

[00:52:32] Eva: It’s not just a learning curve for the person with dyslexia. It’s a learning curve for everybody. Yes, absolutely push through the hard parts and stick together and build a relationship through it.

[00:52:49] Gretchen: I think our audience can see how important this conversation was for us to have. I think you can see what a fantastic job Amanda has done parenting these two fantastic young folks. Amanda, what are the closing words you would have for our audience today?

[00:53:06] Amanda: If you are having suspicions that something is off, don’t ignore that. The earlier the intervention, the better. The faster that you can get tools and supports and practices in place that support your children and support the way that their brains are wired and the way that they learn, the more successful and the better the outcome is going to be.

[00:53:34] Gretchen: Absolutely. I want to thank all of you for joining us today for this conversation. I want to thank Amanda for the questions that she asked us. I want to thank the two of you for being so honest and self-effacing. It’s not easy to be a teenager. To be a teenager who’s willing to sit down and talk about your struggles and share your successes, I just am so very grateful and humbled that you all would spend this time with us today. Thank you all so much. I want to thank everyone for allowing us into your living room. We’ll look forward to joining you all again soon. Thank you for trusting The Demme Learning Show to be a voice in your family’s journey. We appreciate you all so much. Take care, everyone. Have a wonderful afternoon.

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