[00:00:00] Ginger Wayde: My mom always says, friends will come and go, but your family is your family for the rest of your life. The more time you pour into that, the greater the connection will be as they go and grow up and do their thing and whatever, but you always know that you have your family.

[music]

[00:00:23] Gretchen Roe: Good afternoon, everyone. This is Gretchen Roe for The Demme Learning Show. I have hornswoggled my dear friend Ginger Wayde into having this conversation with me. This is the first of a series of conversations that we wanted to use to highlight the value of state organizations. Since the folks in Pennsylvania are some of my favorite convention folks, I wanted Ginger to sit down and have a conversation with me.

This goes much beyond a homeschool convention. What I want you to be able to understand and take away from our conversation is the value of participating with a state organization. I would not have been able to make it through my homeschooling years were it not for my involvement with my state organization in Maryland and my close alignment with the folks in Pennsylvania. The geography was close, and we were close to each other, and I have many fond memories of attending homeschool conferences to be recharged and refreshed.

Nowadays, we have a new generation of homeschoolers, and you all don’t know the world that we raised our kids in. We’re going to take you back down memory lane a little bit, and then we’re going to talk about why it would be really valuable for you to consider being affiliated with a state organization because it is really amazing. Ginger, I’m going to let you introduce yourself, and then we’ll get to the meat of this conversation.

[00:01:59] Ginger: Okay. I am Ginger Wayde. I am the wife of Steve Wayde. We have six children. Right now, they range from 24 down to 11.

[00:02:14] Gretchen: 11 already? How did that happen?

[00:02:15] Ginger: I know. Our coolest, latest family information is that my oldest just got engaged.

[00:02:25] Gretchen: Oh, congratulations. That’s really exciting.

[00:02:28] Ginger: Yes, dipping the toe into the next stage of parenting. There’s always new stages of parenting. We’ve always been in Elizabethtown as a married couple. We’ve been here the whole time. The Pennsylvania Dutch stay where they’re at. You get married, and you move into the house next door, right next to your parents, or maybe a mile away. Yes, we love central Pennsylvania. We love being here. I’m a fierce mama bear. The babies are born, and you’re like, “Oh, don’t let everyone touch my baby.” [laughs]

We were early on thinking about education and what are we going to do. My husband, works at Elizabethtown College. He had a student that worked with him who was homeschooled. This was really early on. Hardly anybody homeschooled. Steve just took note of this young man who was just exemplary, just super smart, super motivated, would teach himself something if he didn’t know it. He didn’t have to rely on Steve to show him all the stuff. He just did the thing. He knew he was homeschooled. He’s like, “Hey, let’s sit down and have a discussion about homeschooling and all that.”

He talked to us about his experience and all that sort of thing. We were like, “Wow, this is really interesting. This is really great.” At the time, I think our oldest was probably three. This young man is the one who pointed us to Jeff and said, “You should go check out this convention. You can learn a lot there.” When our oldest was three, we were years from having to actually choose an education thing. We went. Of course, when you go into something big like that, you’re like, “Wow.” It was so good because we had time to take it all in, to think about it and process it.

I’m telling you, Gretchen, homeschooling and that convention was more foundational to our belief system than what we had been experiencing at that time. I grew up in a denomination that I don’t know that I would even call Christian at this point. It was like the Sunday, Wednesday thing. It really wasn’t how you live your life. It was just the thing you did because it was a good thing to do. We got into, and yes, I knew, “Read your Bible.” I knew, “Pray to Jesus.” I knew that stuff, but it didn’t grab my heart. We got into the convention and just so much biblical teaching. This is what scripture says.

This is what it says about parenting. This is what it says about marriage. This is what it says about educating your children. We were just sponge. We’re just soaking it all in like, “Wow.” For us, right from the get-go, God was doing that. All of our past and all that stuff, He’s orchestrating all that stuff to sit us there in those conventions and go, “Guess what? You’re going to be this CHAP. You’re going to help others do the same thing.” It’s just a deep-seated passion for me, just because it’s just where we got all of our training.

[00:05:52] Gretchen: That’s amazing. You began your homeschool journey and very quickly then started working alongside the folks at CHAP. We should say CHAP is the Christian Home School Association of Pennsylvania.

[00:06:07] Ginger: Yes. This year is my 20th year homeschooling. We’ve been with the board of CHAP for 14 years. I had homeschooled for six years prior. We just went to take it all in for the first few years, of course. Then we were like, “Well, let’s volunteer. Let’s see what that’s like. We really like this. We want to help.” We started as greeters. Hi, welcome to the convention, blah, blah, blah, that sort of thing.” I met the Eaglesons before that because we were in a co-op together, a homeschool co-op together. Marianne Eagleson, who, for those of you would not know, the Eaglesons were involved with CHAP for 25 years. They were from very early on, before it was even CHAP, up until a few years after we came on.

She was my oldest gym class teacher, which just makes me giggle. Marianne is the sweetest, most wonderful. She is such a researcher and loves education and not particularly athletic. My oldest gym class teacher just makes me chuckle every time. They brought us on the board, and there we are. It’s amazing how foundational the convention was for us and just learning how to parent biblically and create a biblically focused lifestyle for our family, a worldview, just totally. Steve and I, we’ve always been the weird ones. We’ve always made the weird decisions. Before we were married, I used to joke with him and call him weird. He said, “You’re going to be Mrs. Weird.” We’ve been Mr. and Mrs. Weird.

[00:07:53] Gretchen: How did your family take your announcement that you were going to home-educate?

[00:07:58] Ginger: I think they were okay with it because I was the smart one. I did well in the traditional education structure framework, which doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t mean anything. It just means I knew how to answer questions and memorize things and regurgitate things and stuff. It doesn’t mean I knew how to think critically or any of that type of thing. I would say probably quite the opposite. If that’s what you know and that’s what education tells you, education should look like. The people of education tell you it should look like this and professionals should do it and blah, blah, blah. Obviously, if you do well in that system, they think you’re going to do well at homeschooling.

Goodness gracious. We made all the weird, the natural childbirth, the organic food, whatever, all the things. We made all the weird decisions early on. They were starting to get used to us making weird decisions. That was very good. Over the years, we’ve educated them. My brother homeschooled too, and he was not the exemplary school student. Their kids are great. I would argue, even, what you learn in that system is detrimental, sometimes, to educating your children at home. I’ve been unlearning some of the things that I’ve learned for years. I’m in my 20th year, and I’m still like, “Okay, loosen up. Okay, let’s do this. Let’s work with this.”

[00:09:27] Gretchen: Back when you began homeschooling 20 years ago, that would have been 2006, homeschooling was still quiet. In that age, I would tote all my kids to the grocery store, and somebody would say, “Why aren’t you guys in school today?” My kids would always say, “Field trip. You know?” The attitudes around homeschooling have changed. In the years that you have participated at the state level, what are the changes that you have seen as far as home education?

[00:10:06] Ginger: Early on, just like you were saying, there’s always been a stigma, the homeschool stigma, like what homeschoolers look like or whatever. We were fortunately in a half-decent-sized community of homeschoolers in our church, but it definitely had a– Early on, everyone dressed the same. Everyone played seven-stringed instruments and could record records, CDs, whatever. There was a lot of pressure. Early on, the homeschooling community really felt the need to prove ourselves. “We’re smart. We can keep up with everybody. We can even surpass everybody.” There was a lot of pressure in that way.

In that way, with that type of pressure, you want to hold on to what you knew, that system, maybe, and possibly make it work. Some other people could totally break free and be like, “I can totally train my kids without following your system.” It’s definitely changed over the years now. You hate to make it all about looks, but you look around, and people are like, “Oh, I didn’t know you were homeschooled.” Yes, we don’t have three eyes and two heads and whatever. We look like everybody else, but we don’t act like everyone else, which is what people typically notice.

Oh my goodness, I hear so many good things about my kids, but they get out there, they volunteer, they help, they work hard, they organize, they communicate, they’re not afraid to talk to adults, just all those sorts of things. You can see the difference, whether you’re willing to admit it’s homeschooling that makes that difference. It is more mainstream. There’s so many more people doing it. Now, in Lancaster County, where we live, it is the hotbed for homeschooling in the state of Pennsylvania. Hands down.

[00:12:15] Gretchen: Really? I didn’t know that.

[00:12:17] Ginger: Yes. It’s way more than anywhere else. We have a large Amish and Mennonite population. They don’t necessarily homeschool. They have their own schools, but there’s a number of them that do. There’s just co-ops everywhere. I could go to 10 different co-ops within 15 minutes of my house, 10 minutes of my house. There’s just a lot. There’s a lot.

[00:12:39] Gretchen: Was it that way when you began, or has this been an evolution?

[00:12:44] Ginger: There was a lot when I started, but there’s a lot more smaller groups that are getting started here and there. There was never like, “Oh, I wonder what I’m going to do.” No, this is just where we happen to be. I’ve always been in a place where there’s a lot of us. I had two different co-ops that we’ve ever been in. There’s just a large, close community.

Yes, it’s different than some people that really don’t have any. I don’t know anyone who homeschools. That, fortunately for me, was not my experience. I always was well-connected to a number of homeschoolers, which has been really great because when people don’t understand, say family members or whatever, don’t understand you or what’s going on, there was someone there to talk to and get encouragement, especially with Steve and, oh, the biblical worldview and what God was doing in our hearts and the passion for living like God says in His word. Really challenged some of our family members.

That was challenging for us. It was really good to have a really solid biblical worldview community. We’ve always been in Christian co-ops. Like you said, the homeschool community, that’s really changed. Early on, the only homeschoolers I knew were Christian homeschoolers. Now it’s such a wide variety. There’s lots of secular groups around.

[00:14:13] Gretchen: Once upon a time, the purpose of a state organization really was so that you could all have economies of scale to come together to have a conference. You’ve grown so much beyond that as far as the things that you provide for families.

Can you talk a little bit about that as far as what has CHAP learned over the past 20 years in the ways that it supports people? Because you guys do a wide variety of things.

[00:14:46] Ginger: Yes. Early on, the organization itself, the first thing it did was a convention. It did a meetup at a park. That is what it has been since day one. It grew from that, and it got really large at one point. Then you get internet, and you get all these different types of technologies. That just changed the whole scope of how people wanted to get information and all that. We do still have the convention.

It’s so important to be together. We do still do that. We do smaller events too. We have women’s retreats coming up here this fall. We do something in the spring when you’re about ready to lose your mind because you’ve been inside. It’s good to have those touch points then because, I don’t know, just something about being together that’s great. We do a number of different little events like that. Capitol Day, so you can tour the Capitol and get to see your legislators.

[00:15:42] Gretchen: You all did something different last year. I was trying this morning to remember, instead of making a winter convention in one place, you took it on the road. Talk to us a little bit about that, where parents could find support.

[00:16:00] Ginger: Yes. That’s called the hometown tour. We currently have five locations across the state. It was in Warren, Pittsburgh, State College, Scranton, and Lancaster. We’re trying to hit all those pockets. You can get to one in a one-and-a-half to two-hour drive anywhere in the state. It’s a fellowship, but also an encouragement. There’s a little meal where we can have conversation and get to know each other. There’s a session at the beginning and a session after that, and time for questions and answers and that sort of thing. That has been a little bit more of an intimate setting.

[00:16:42] Gretchen: Is that geared maybe to someone who has not yet begun homeschooling, or is it geared to someone who is really in the trenches and looking to restore a little bit of enthusiasm in the dead of winter?

[00:16:56] Ginger: It’s both because we are supplying the rah-rah, you can do this is why we’re homeschooling thing. Sometimes those of us who’ve been doing it for 20 years need to be reminded why we’ve been doing it for 20 years. Sometimes those who are getting started need that gentle, “Yes, this is why, and this is why it’s really important.” Then we have a technical aspect to it.

Typically, one of them is the philosophical, “Yes, this is why we’re doing it.” Then there also could be a technical part, or this is a good help for your homeschool, or maybe try using these techniques type of thing. We’re trying to offer both parts there so that it appeals broadly to the community. That’s our in-person type things. The other types of things that we have, we have a website. Pennsylvania, for all of y’all who don’t know, we’re listed as the second most difficult state to homeschool in. We have a lot of hoops to jump through.

[00:17:57] Gretchen: Really? I did not know that.

[00:18:00] Ginger: Yes. I don’t think it’s difficult, but I’ve always been in it. I know people who move in from other states are like, “What?” It’s really just like red tape. It’s your bureaucracy, right? One of the big things that we do is help to explain all that to people so they know how to do it; they know what to do. It’s all explained to them.

[00:18:21] Gretchen: It’s not really, though, difficult. It’s that you have to understand how to negotiate the paperwork and the pond, if you will.

[00:18:31] Ginger: Yes, it’s the organization of it, just keeping that type of thing. Homeschoolpennsylvania.org is our website that explains all the things. I’ve made videos that explain all the little parts of the law so people can get better understanding with that. That’s one of our huge resources. We also have chaponline.com, which has lists of evaluators, and it has lists of support groups, and lists of mentors, and things like that to help you. If you need to talk to somebody, you can reach out to a mentor. If you need an evaluator for the end of the year, you can find one, reach out, and discuss.

Then groups, which the only way we know about groups is if they reach out to us and tell us about them. We have a number of groups listed throughout the state, but they have to reach out and let us know about them. We have an online presence there. We have Facebook, Instagram, YouTube.

[00:19:27] Gretchen: Then you also host a podcast.

[00:19:29] Ginger: I do. This is wrapping up my eighth year. I do every other week, and my friend Ro does the opposites for me. We have new content every week. Anything from law– The law stuff always is hot. I’ve talked with Will Estrada multiple times on my show, but just reminding people–

[00:19:57] Gretchen: We should say that Will Estrada is an HSLDA attorney who specifically consults with different states, and Pennsylvania is one of them.

[00:20:06] Ginger: Yes. We talk about the things that are going on in the state, and there’s been some spicy stuff going on in Pennsylvania for the last year or so regards to school districts and what they’re requiring of homeschoolers, which isn’t according to the law. We talk a lot about that stuff and make sure people are aware. Fortunately, what that has been doing is getting people thinking about the law and reading it and understanding it.

There’s more people writing and saying, “Hey, my school district is asking this. Is this part of the law?” “No, it’s not. This is overreach.” We’re becoming more able to educate them, which I love. So many homeschoolers say, “Hey, friend, what do I do?” They say, “This is what you do.” They go, “Okay.” Then they just do it, whether or not it’s according to the law. We’ve been really trying to educate people and get them to understand what it truly says.

[00:20:57] Gretchen: Well, every state has a different set of laws that govern homeschooling. If you are in a high-touch state like Pennsylvania is, it’s going to be entirely different than if you’re in a state where there’s a little regard for accountability and testing. Talk to me then a little bit about what do you have to do in Pennsylvania? Because I know what it is, but our audience may not. If I’m a parent in Pennsylvania, and I’m listening to our conversation, what do I need to do to become, on the right side of the law, a legal homeschooler there?

[00:21:39] Ginger: In order to be compliant with the law in Pennsylvania, it’s pretty simple. There’s a letter. It’s an affidavit or an unsworn declaration. You can choose either. All this stuff is on homeschoolpennsylvania.org. If you want to know any of this paperwork, that’s where you got to go. It’s all there, and it’s all explained there. You can choose. The affidavit needs to be notarized. Typically costs money to do that. The unsworn declaration came out in 2020. We all know why. Because nobody could find a place to go to get anything notarized because nobody wanted to come near anybody else. Apparently, our paperwork was not essential.

Anyway, it came out that you could use an unsworn declaration or an affidavit. You choose one of those two, and then you also add, with it, objectives, which is a list by subject of what you’re going to cover for the year. My misunderstanding when I started was that I had to list all my textbooks and more specific things. Then I learned that it could be really general.

We have what we have on homeschoolpennsylvania.org. I’ve reused every single year since I learned to do so. It’s one of those things that you do. Those two pieces of paperwork get dropped off at the school district’s office. It’s not your elementary school. It’s the district office. It gets dropped off there with the superintendent. You can drop it off. You can mail it in. A lot of people receive email now since 2020. Those are the three ways. Some school districts will say, “Well, you have to use this. You have to do it this way.” No, they have to receive it.

[00:23:30] Gretchen: However you choose to deliver it. Right?

[00:23:32] Ginger: Yes, in any of those ways. Those two pieces of paper get handed in. The moment you drop those off, voila, you’re a homeschooler. Many districts will say, “Oh, we’ve approved your school for the year.” “No, we’re not an approval state. Once we hand in the papers, we’re good to go.” Then over the course of the year, you collect some worksheets and stuff that your kids are doing as you go along.

At the end of the year, we have a little sit-down time with an evaluator and show them some of our kids’ work. It doesn’t have to be all of it, just a little bit here and a little bit there. They say, “Okay, you comply with the law in grades three, five, and eight. We need to do standardized testing of some sort.” Again, that’s explained on homeschoolpennsylvania.org, but you get to choose what you want to do.

[00:24:22] Gretchen: Does CHAP organize those kinds of events for standardized testing?

[00:24:29] Ginger: We do not, because at this point in time– Like back in the day when everything was paper and pencil, you couldn’t administer the test to your own children.

[00:24:39] Gretchen: Correct, yes.

[00:24:41] Ginger: We do have a list of testers on our website because some people will have testing days; some evaluators will do it. You can bring your kids in there; they’ll administer the test. So many people now just do the online, like my kids do the online CAT. I don’t know what’s majority at this point. That would be a good question. Maybe we’d have to ask that to find out. I think many, many people are using that online version, so there’s no need to go meet up.

[00:25:08] Gretchen: I know what you say when you say the CAT, but we’re talking about the California Achievement Test.

[00:25:13] Ginger: Yes.

[00:25:14] Gretchen: I was a certified Stanford tester way back in the day. I want parents to understand, who are listening to us, that’s not an insurmountable hurdle. It’s a one-day measurement of your child’s progress year over year. It’s not even an annual thing. It was, for me, because I had relatives to whom I had to justify what I was doing. It was an annual event on my behalf, but not everyone chooses to do that. In Pennsylvania, you’re required to do it on the odd years, correct?

[00:25:49] Ginger: Three, five, and eight.

[00:25:50] Gretchen: Three, five, and eight. Interesting?

[00:25:52] Ginger: Interesting. I know. I don’t know why. What’s challenging there too is our paperwork goes in by age. On our affidavit, we will write our children’s name and their age. We don’t give them a grade, and we don’t give our birth dates. The school district will automatically take that and assign a grade, but we don’t–

[00:26:14] Gretchen: I would have skewed that right out of the gate because I had a seven-year-old fourth-grader.

[00:26:19] Ginger: Yes. There you go. I have a video on testing if you want to check it out. It’s linked from homeschoolpennsylvania.org. I explain all that just because third grade is what you decide it to be when you decide it to be. There’s a lot of flexibility there for the supervisor to create the homeschool that they need to create for their children’s well-being, even though there’s guidelines. There are guidelines. There’s, “Cover this, cover science and history and all this stuff,” but it’s over the course of 1st through 6th or 7th through 12th. It’s this big swath of time over which to do these requirements.

[00:27:04] Gretchen: Then in Pennsylvania, you also have evaluators. Talk to me a little bit about that because someone may be listening to us from a state where those don’t exist, so they might not understand what that means. I know what that means because we had those in Maryland.

[00:27:20] Ginger: Yes. I’m not sure how they function state to state, but many people think the evaluator passes your child. The evaluator’s job is to make sure you’re compliant to the law. That simply means, “Oh, you did 180 days. Oh, you did the testing this year if you needed to.” Oh, I’m seeing sustained progress. It doesn’t mean I got through the 5th grade book. It just means you started here. At the end of the year, you were here. If you have a child with a lot of learning challenges, you might not get through a whole book or whatever that looks like for your child, but there’s sustained progress. That’s what the evaluator’s looking for. They’re looking for the child that is growing and learning.

Maybe you’ve got a kid who adores math and gets through three textbooks in one year or whatever. That’s progress. You see what they started at here, and here’s a little bit in the middle, and then here’s some papers from the end of the year. “This is what we’re doing.” Typically, what happens is the evaluator will sit down or like a Zoom and have a conversation with the child.

“Oh, what was your favorite thing this year? What was your favorite book?” I don’t know. They’ll just talk to them a little bit about their year. For me, I like my evaluator. It’s fun. The kids get to share with her. She’s been my evaluator since the beginning. I find it fun to share with her. She works in the school district, one of the local school districts. She’s like, “Oh, your family gives me hope.”

[00:28:54] Gretchen: I think for those of us who are listening here in the audience, I think you need to understand an evaluator is a collaborative role. Sometimes when you’re a homeschool parent, you say things 100 different ways, and your kids are like, la, la, la. Then the evaluator comes in and says the exact same thing in the exact same words, and your kids are like, “You know, Mrs. Wayde said.” All of a sudden, it has weight and merit in a way that it didn’t have when you said it.

[00:29:27] Ginger: Yes, of course. Yes, that type of thing happens, yes, more than you want to admit. Anyway, yes. Some evaluators meet with people for 10 minutes, and some meet for longer. That’s one of the things that I encourage people, when they’re looking for an evaluator, to talk to them. “What’s your philosophy? What do you think about education in general? What are you looking for when you evaluate this type of thing?”

You need to understand if what they’re thinking drives with what you’re thinking as far as your kids, and maybe it doesn’t fit, and you need to look for someone else. The cool thing is you don’t have to have the same evaluator twice. I personally just love mine, so I just haven’t bothered looking for someone else because it fits.

[00:30:18] Gretchen: Absolutely. Ginger, what do you see on the horizon for homeschooling in Pennsylvania? I know you and the board are ardently serving the families, but what does it look like down the road? Is homeschooling still a growing, viable enterprise in Pennsylvania, or are families becoming more hesitant? What is happening?

[00:30:40] Ginger: Oh, it’s definitely growing. Of course, when everyone was homeschooling, it grew a lot, but even after that–

[00:30:46] Gretchen: You mean back in 2020 when we all became homeschoolers, whether we wanted to or not.

[00:30:51] Ginger: Exactly. From that point forward, we doubled pretty much overnight, even though when a lot of people went back to school, and what they did normally, our population was still doubled. It’s still very small. It’s still only 4% in the state, but it did double, and it is growing. I’m hearing more and more about parents with special needs kids, and there’s just more. There’s just more special needs kids, and there’s less bandwidth at the schools for working with the kids.

[00:31:28] Gretchen: Right. We’ve seen budget contractions, and that means that the kids are the ones who suffer. How does CHAP provide for families who maybe have a child who learns differently? What kind of advice or support do you provide for people?

[00:31:43] Ginger: This is something we’re really working on growing in. At our convention, we had special needs conferences attached to the convention. I think that’s going to be a little different for the coming year, but we will still have sessions specifically tailored to those with learning differences and different needs. We’re also working on– It’s very new. There’s someone who’s reached out with a heart to help these parents and help them understand, especially children, like non-verbal autistic children. Children that, “How do I work with this homeschool law with my child? It’s completely different.” We’re working on developing, whether it’s a group or a meetup time.

It’s still very early in the let’s plan this out stages, but something where moms can connect and have touch points. We had a leadership training also for co-op and support group leaders at the convention. In that, Patti Stoudt was our speaker, and she shared some things about how to help families coming into your co-op with kids who have different needs and how to include them into your communities. It’s a really hard– I just had a conversation with someone who was a teacher at a co-op with a special needs child. There are so many things to discuss there when bringing those into the community. There’s just a lot. It’s just a whole big ball of twine. Yes.

[00:33:20] Gretchen: I think what’s really important is that parents need to understand that nobody knows your child more intimately than you do. Patti Stoudt is absolutely a phenomenal resource. As a matter of fact, I had a conversation with her a year ago on this show, and I’ll include that in our show notes as a reference because she helps parents frame very clearly how they can be supported in the process. The fact that it’s lonely when you have a child who learns differently, and having something like CHAP and the CHAP organization to be able to come alongside you so you’re not out there all by yourself rowing the boat by yourself is enormous. It does make a difference.

[00:34:06] Ginger: Yes. That’s one of the big things that we’re working on. The need, I just think it’s just going to keep growing. You look at the statistics and stuff, and I just think there’s going to be more and more parents, and they’re going to realize that the school doesn’t have the bandwidth. They might have people with the skills, but they don’t have the bandwidth because there’s so much need. It’s trying to come alongside and figure that out.

I think, otherwise, things that are coming down the pike in Pennsylvania is unique in that we have public school, charter school, private school, homeschool, and the charter schools are getting the brunt of the attention from the public school people right now. We’re flying under the radar and enjoying that. We do not have a legislature that’s friendly to making our law less stringent, but I think where we’re at right now actually is we’re educating people how to work with the law as it is.

It is actually very flexible. You just have these few hoops to deal with. There are points of contention when it gets into medical and dental and immunization information, and who’s allowed to have what, and what the law really says, and all that. That will be a big thing that I would love to change. The other thing, of course, it’s big everywhere, is ESAs and how that’s going to affect–

[00:35:27] Gretchen: Now, Pennsylvania doesn’t have an ESA, do they?

[00:35:31] Ginger: No, but there’s a lot of bills with it in that it’s being discussed in Harrisburg right now.

[00:35:39] Gretchen: We should say for our audience, an ESA is an educational savings account. There are as many kinds of ESAs as there are states in the union. Some states allow them, where you would be giving the tax money that normally would go to a school district into an individual family’s hands. They’re administered in a lot of different ways. I would encourage you as a parent in Pennsylvania to go figure out exactly what’s happening there, what that is.

[00:36:13] Ginger: There’s so many crazy things happening right now. There’s some crazy things going on with our Department of Health at the moment, which is where CHAP’s attention is right now, how to respond to that, and what we need to let the homeschool community know. In regards to this, not necessarily homeschool-specific, but it is parental rights and freedom. Yes, that’s where our brains are at the moment as far as those types of things. Homeschooling in Pennsylvania, it’s going strong. It’s growing. It’s like the old, the first generation; they’ve graduated their kids. Some are still plugged in and helping. At this point, it’s a whole new generation of homeschoolers.

They’re approaching homeschooling differently. They’re more like running away from the bullies. The inadequate school stuff and whatever, instead of, “I really want to educate my child in the Lord.” It’s not that people don’t want their children to grow up with a Christian education. It’s just not typically the main why in a lot of the families now. We’re working with people there because CHAP’s heart is to encourage people to follow Christ in all of life. We’re helping parents to do that.

It’s like what hit Steve and I. Our life belongs to Jesus. Every moment. It’s not the Sunday and Wednesday thing. It’s every moment that we’re alive belongs to Him. He redeemed it all. What is it, how is it that I’m living my life for Him? Then training our children in that, and then helping other people train their children. That’s the heart behind CHAP. Reaching out for those people who are looking for a place to educate their children that’s there’s no bullies, and there’s no fear, and there’s no–

[00:38:04] Gretchen: How do I ask this question correctly? Are you seeing more families who are coming in for a period of time? Like, “I’m in a school right now in a district where my child’s needs aren’t being served. For this year, I’ll homeschool, but that child’s going to move to a different school next year. Maybe I’m only doing this for a briefer period of time.” Are you seeing more in and out, or are you seeing more families who are embracing homeschooling as a whole lifestyle all the way through their kid’s graduation?

[00:38:40] Ginger: I think there’s a mix of that. There’s a mix of that. People are definitely more willing to hop, education-style hop. “Let’s do homeschool a little bit, and then we’ll do some Christian school.” Then I talked to a mom recently, and she said, “Well, we’re going to Christian school now, but when it gets too expensive to do all of them, I’ll probably do homeschool,” which was different. That was new to me. It was more like, “Oh, I’m going to homeschool my kids until they’re in 8th grade, because then it gets really scary.”

[00:39:11] Gretchen: Yes, but you guys provide an enormous amount of support, particularly for high school homeschooling, that maybe a lot of parents don’t understand. Can you talk a little bit about that? I know a lot of parents are like, “Oh, I couldn’t do high school.” I got to tell you, looking back on that, that was my favorite. That was when my kids started to have their own opinions. We started to debate things. They started to learn what was important to them and what was valuable to them. I thought that was a wonderful time.

[00:39:43] Ginger: It was wonderful. Well, I always encourage people, “You know what? It’s not like there’s some chasm. Here you are in junior high, you get through junior, sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade, and all of a sudden there’s this leap into ninth grade, and it’s way over here.” It’s just the next step. “What did your child finish now. Okay, well, let’s do the next step.” It’s all gradual learning the whole way through. When we get ourselves all worked up about what they need to have done when they graduate, yes, sure, it can look formidable, but when you’re just doing the next step, it’s eating the elephant one bite at a time.

You’re just one little chomp, one little chomp. No, and that is the time when, yes, you can have conversations with your kids; you can get into these. It’s just amazing. Sometimes their viewpoints do not match your viewpoints, so then you get into some debate. It’s good because then it teaches both of you to why you believe this, what are your supporting things, and it’s all that type of thing. It’s so good. They’ve ministered to me multiple times.

[00:40:49] Gretchen: I remember my husband vividly saying when my kids were in high school, and they were all part of debate, he said, “Maybe we should have thought twice before we– Because they already argue plenty enough. Now we’re giving them the tools to argue more cogently.” I’m like, “Yes, it’ll serve them well, I promise you.”

[00:41:08] Ginger: Yes. That always happens with logic class. My one daughter’s in logic class this year. She’s the fourth one to do it. Whenever someone goes through logic class, I always hear, “Hey, that’s a straw man,” or, “Hey, that’s a red herring.” We always get that, but it’s fun. It’s really fun because it makes you–

[00:41:25] Gretchen: The flip side of that is how exciting it is when your kids start to think for themselves. There’s nothing cooler than being there when you’re like, “Oh, whoa, wait a minute, you really are thinking for yourself.”

[00:41:40] Ginger: Yes. Their decisions on their faith, when their faith is their own, and they’re going through issues, and they are praying, and they are studying, and they are journaling, and they are growing in their understanding of who it is that God made them to be. That’s awesome. Sometimes I’m at a loss. I’m like, “Oh, I don’t even know. God’s guiding them through,” and I just sit back and go, “Wow, that was interesting.”

[00:42:05] Gretchen: I have to tell you, anecdotally, without going into great detail, I was at a city council meeting last week, sitting there waiting for the council meeting to start, and in walk my two adult sons in suits, and they parked themselves on the front row because they were there. They wanted their voices to be heard about this issue that was coming before city council. I was there with a friend of mine, and she said, “I bet you feel smug.”

I said, “I didn’t even know they were coming.” She said, “See, this is what happens when you teach them to think for themselves.” Yes, it really was very, very interesting to see that they cared enough about this particular issue going on in our community to be there. I think that’s one of the intrinsics about homeschooling, is you’re not in a vacuum. You’re learning to be part of the community and support the community as you educate your children.

[00:43:06] Ginger: Yes, exactly. It’s not like this, “Okay, now we have to teach you how to integrate into society because you’ve never been in it.” They’ve been in it all along. They see how it works. They see how things go. They’re at the store in the middle of the day when no one else, whatever. They interact with people and stuff like that. Yes, it’s really good. It’s really good.

[00:43:26] Gretchen: Ginger, project five years in the future. Where do you see homeschooling in Pennsylvania? What do you think are going to be the biggest blessings and the biggest challenges for the state?

[00:43:36] Ginger: Oh, goodness. Five years in the future. Well, I think it’s just going to keep growing. I do think that people are going to have the courage. There’s just more people. They just know more people. “If this person’s doing it, I can do it too.” I think there’s going to be more people choosing to bring their children home, especially, again, with those special needs.

I just think there’s going to be a need to do that. I think challenge-wise, I get a little bit concerned when we get big enough; we’re drawing more attention now already. You draw more attention, and then it’s like, “Well, maybe we need to keep an eye on these people a little bit better.” I get a little bit concerned about that. I do wonder what’s going to happen with the ESA thing.

[00:44:21] Gretchen: Is there ESAs on the horizon in Pennsylvania? Is that what it would be?

[00:44:27] Ginger: There’s a few bills in there right now. I’ve spoken with some of the gentlemen, and I know HSLDA has information about the effects of introducing ESAs, at least for homeschoolers, and what that looks like for us. I just get a little bit concerned about the homeschool community giving up freedoms for the cash.

[00:44:49] Gretchen: Right. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[00:44:52] Ginger: No. Your children are worth it. Your children are worth every single tiny bit of sacrifice. Well, a huge bit of sacrifice. All the sacrifice is worth it. Doing with less is very good. It’s good for all of us. It’s good for us. It’s good for our kids. Figuring it out without getting the handout, I think, is really important. I think we’ve gotten a little squishy as Americans. I think it’s going to be good to maybe toughen up in that way a little bit.

[00:45:23] Gretchen: I wonder, Ginger, before we conclude our conversation, if you could talk a little bit about the investment of time necessary to be successful in the homeschooling experience. Because I was just having a conversation with a colleague this morning that it seems like the fact that you are assuming a full-time job to educate your children at home is maybe being lost somewhere with some parents today.

Maybe it’s because of the technology that is so ubiquitous. I’m grateful, to be honest, that I homeschooled before the technology because, to me, I find it to be a bit of a distraction. Although it is handy when you sit down at the dinner table, and somebody has a convers– “Why does so-and-so happen?” “I don’t know, but let’s see what Mother Google has to say.”

[00:46:18] Ginger: Mother Google, that’s so funny. There’s so many more drop-offs. When I started, you went to a co-op where the moms were teaching. The moms were there. They were invested. That’s my co-op still. The moms are teaching. They’re helping each other. It’s not a drop-off. There are other co-ops where the teachers are paid. You can totally drop your kids off. You don’t have to be there. There’s more university models where you’re dropping off two, three times a week. In Pittsburgh, I know there’s some that are even four times a week. Your child is really not at home. It’s just school in a different style. There’s the loss of connection with your children, that they’re not with you.

Sometimes it’s hard. No joke. Sometimes it’s really hard. Sometimes children have a hard time grasping things. It takes a lot of time. You have to do it again and again. It’s growing through that with your children that builds the bonds. It builds the connection. It helps your kids to understand that they matter a whole lot. Becomes, “Mom’s willing to put aside all this other stuff that she could be doing to sit here and help me figure out how to do this,” whatever it is. “Mom’s willing to take my curriculum and change it so that it works for me. Mom’s willing to sit and read to me every day. She puts aside time to make sure that we go for a walk together and we work on this chore together,” or whatever.

It’s in all that time together that all the relationships are built and the connections that are foundational for the rest of your life and their life. My mom always says, your friends will come and go, but your family is your family for the rest of your life. The more time you pour into that, the greater the connection will be as they go and grow up and do their thing and whatever, but you always know that you have your family there for each other. My heart always hurts to see people who have homeschool to decide, “Well, we’re going to put them in Christian school.”

Not that Christian school is bad, but there’s just less communication time. The more your kids are away from you, the less connection you’ll have. Honestly, Gretchen, God is doing work in all those tensions at home. God is growing you. He’s growing your children. It’s about your character as much as your children’s character. That won’t happen when your kids aren’t with you. “Oh, it’s hard. We butt heads.” “Well, yes.” They’re all unique. You’re unique. No one thinks exactly the same.

That’s where you grow your character, and you learn how to work with other people so that when they one day go out into the workplace and, oh, lo and behold, there’s all these other different people that think different ways and behave in different ways. They can communicate with them and know how to deal with their own emotions and all that stuff as they’re working through the frustrating things. There is a lot of sacrifice. There’s no way around it. There’s a lot of sacrifice to homeschooling, but it’s all worth it.

[00:49:30] Gretchen: Absolutely. Ginger, in these closing moments, what words would you like those who have listened to us to take away from this conversation?

[00:49:39] Ginger: I think pretty much what I just said. It’s all worth it. All the time is worth it. I know it’s so hard, and that adage is so true. They’re the longest days of the shortest years. You’ve heard it a million times, but it is very true because, like I said at the beginning, I’m at the cusp of stepping into married children at this point, and that’s a whole new world. Having built those relationships before they left the nest will have new and better and more relationships as they go into that. That’s the treasure in heaven. Your relationships with your kids and what you’re building there, that is treasure in heaven, and it’s better than anything else.

[00:50:20] Gretchen: Absolutely. Ginger, I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to me today about homeschooling in Pennsylvania. As I said at the beginning of our conversation, this is the first conversation with several state leaders that we’re going to have. I want to thank you because I think you have given people a dose of encouragement, something that parents really need to listen to and hear. I’m just grateful for your time. I’m grateful for the sacrifice that you have made for the last many years to make this possible for so many other families in the state. I just wanted to say thank you.

[00:50:56] Ginger: You’re welcome. Thanks for having me on. [crosstalk]

[00:50:58] Gretchen: This was awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you, everyone, for those of you who have listened to this conversation. The information that Ginger provided for me about homeschoolpennsylvania.org and chaponline.com will both be in the show notes, so you can find that information there. Take care, everyone.

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