[00:00:00] Natalie Mack: You want to follow the toolkit. I tell homeschoolers this because I can say this as a fellow homeschooler. We love being able to chart our own path, do our own thing, be independent, make our own decisions, not with the NCAA. This is not the time.

[music]

[00:00:20] Gretchen Roe: Good afternoon, everyone. This is Gretchen Roe for The Demme Learning Show. I am so excited to be here with my dear friend, Natalie Mack. You know you’ve really arrived when you have a friend who’s good enough to call you and say, “Hey, I got this thing. I want to talk to you about NCAA eligibility.” I had been scouring for probably a year, looking for somebody who could have a conversation with me. To find out it would be Natalie was just amazing.

By way of introduction, we’re going to talk about Military Homeschool Association. We’re going to talk about NCAA eligibility because Natalie is a wealth of information. Natalie, I’m going to let you introduce yourself because your credentials are vast.

[00:01:05] Natalie: Oh, gosh. This is so awesome. Thank you so much, Gretchen. I really appreciate it. I’m excited to talk about this. This is one of my favorite subjects. By happenstance, quite honestly, so I’ll tell you that story about our youngest daughter. A military homeschooler, been homeschooling 23 plus years, retired Navy chaplain spouse, mom of five. We have our last of 5 who’s in 12th grade going on to college in the fall. The other four have finished college and in grad school or finished graduate school. We have been on this homeschooling journey for a long time. We moved all over the world, as most military families do.

I wear a couple of hats in the homeschool community. I love every hat that I do wear. I’m super pro homeschooling. A couple of hats that I wear is I do work for HSLDA as the military outreach coordinator, as well as a high school educational resource specialist. I’ve been loving that job and connecting military families to all of the amazing resources HSLDA has; legal and educational resources are phenomenal.

The other thing, a hat I wear, is I do have a homeschool consultation business that I do this type of thing under. It’s Natalie Mack, LLC. On socials, I’m homeschoolnataliemack. Then I also have a nonprofit started October 2023. This October will be two years. It’s called Military Homeschoolers Association. I have an amazing board supporting me. We are just doing phenomenal things, including we launched a podcast called Base2Base Military Homeschooling. Things are really good. I’m excited to be here to talk about this subject.

I’ll tell you how I fell into this, our youngest daughter. Like I said, military family. We were overseas in Naples, Italy. I always knew since she told us about age seven. She said, “Mom, I want to play Division I soccer.” I thought, “Okay, great.” Now, I wasn’t an athlete. My husband wasn’t an athlete. We were like, “Okay, Division I. Okay, we’ll figure that out later. Age seven. What do you know?”

She continued to bring this up and continued to do extremely well on the soccer field. Eventually we found ourselves, because of military, overseas in Naples, Italy, and the time came to now my part as a parent. This is what we’ll talk about to you who have college-bound athletes. My role is to facilitate this NCAA process, just to come alongside her like we do as homeschooling moms with our children, their dreams and passions, we’re like, “Let’s get it done.” That was how I fell into this NCAA because of our youngest daughter, Alexandra.

[00:03:58] Gretchen: As you all can probably imagine, my husband would accurately describe Natalie as somebody who can thread a sewing machine while it’s running. [laughter] We’re kindred spirits in that. We met a couple of years ago at an HSLDA function and fell in love with each other. When Natalie said, “Hey, do you want to talk about NCAA eligibility?” I was like, “Yes. Yes, I do.” God is always good. He always answers prayers.

[00:04:25] Natalie: Yes.

[00:04:25] Gretchen: Natalie, you’ve given me a wonderful resource, which I want all the parents who are online with us today, or maybe listening to this podcast afterwards, to know it will be in the show notes. It’s going to be homework for you. You’re going to need to read it carefully because there’s a lot of information. It’s a little bit like drinking from a fire hose. When Natalie shared it with me a month ago, when we planned this talk, I read through it. I’ve gone through it again today, and I found so much more information. I’m going to say it’ll be worth printing out and highlighting so that you know exactly what you’re doing. Natalie, let’s get into it. Where does a parent begin?

[00:05:04] Natalie: Wow. Like you said, literally, I want to refer everyone to that NCAA Eligibility Center. I want to put a disclaimer out. They are the final authority. I am presenting partly from my experience, partly from what I know to be true, and partly from my understanding of the toolkit and helping other families. That’s the disclaimer. The toolkit is the final say, not Natalie Mack.

Having said that, the NCAA has an eligibility center. You want to go to the eligibility center, and you want to look for the homeschool toolkit like your reference. You want to follow the toolkit. I tell homeschoolers this because I can say this as a fellow homeschooler. We love being able to chart our own path, do our own thing, be independent, make our own decisions, not with the NCAA. This is not the time if you want to be successful with assisting your college-bound athletes. Follow the toolkit. Download the toolkit. Read the toolkit. Read it again. Like Gretchen just said, you’re going to read it a lot of times.

Then there’s other resources out there. I’m a resource. There’s a Facebook page that I will mention. That’s a resource. There’s resources to help you. Matter of fact, the NCAA Eligibility Center even has a YouTube channel where they have done webinars. They do still live on the YouTube channel. You can watch the replay. There’s resources that didn’t exist when we went through the process years ago.

[00:06:39] Gretchen: Where did you begin? How did you figure this out?

[00:06:43] Natalie: Through the resources that they had on the website back then, you all. I was just figuring it out, and now I see the resources. To me, it’s a lot clearer, but there have been a few changes. There used to be a sliding scale where they would use SAT and GPA. It was like a sliding scale. If a student didn’t have as high of a GPA but their SAT or ACT was high, it could flex like that. They’ve gotten rid of no SAT and ACT requirement, you all.

[00:07:21] Gretchen: Which I think is really interesting. I found that to be fascinating. I didn’t think that their GPA requirements were that strident. Division I is 2.3.

[00:07:32] Natalie: 2.3.

[00:07:33] Gretchen: Division II is 2.2.

[00:07:35] Natalie: Exactly. Yes. There’s three divisions. Let me say a couple of things, and I don’t want to scramble the audience and be all over. I want to say, as we’re talking about this, I want to make sure parents know NCAA eligibility is not admissions. They’re totally separate-

[00:07:53] Gretchen: Very important to make that clear.

[00:07:55] Natalie: -processes, because I have had parents– We don’t know what we don’t know. Parents have said, “Oh, if we go through this process, then my child is playing in college.” No. No, there’s more to the process. They will not be able to play in college if they don’t stop at this process first. This is the first process, other than being prepared to play at the college level. That’s athletic. That’s something you hopefully or your student [crosstalk]–

[00:08:19] Gretchen: It’s yes and.

[00:08:22] Natalie: Yes and. Exactly. [crosstalk] Exactly. You got to go through this process, which is really the way the NCAA just ensures that athletes are academically sound to do well in college. They aren’t assessing a student’s athletic ability at all. That’s the coaches and the scouts’ job. They are not assessing your academic ability to meet the admissions requirements for any particular college. That’s up to the student. That’s why I say it’s a package. You have to still get accepted to whatever the university is you hope to play at, D-I, D-II, or D-III. You got to go whatever the school’s application process is. You need to meet it.

We circle back now to the SAT and ACT, where I know NCAA does not require the scores. There’s no place to put the scores. Now that we’re talking college admissions and we got to talk it at the same time, you might need SAT and ACT for college specifically, even if it’s a test-optional school, because don’t count on getting 100% athletic scholarship to cover your student’s complete full ride of college. It just hardly ever happens. You’re going to possibly need merit money from that school.

Then to get merit money, you’re going to need SAT and ACT in most cases, because internal merit money from a university, most of the time, even for test-optional school for admissions, but for merit internal money, they often want to see test scores. You’re going to have to be able to talk in three different lanes at the same time. That’s why I caution families, don’t get too excited, don’t let your athlete get too excited if they don’t like taking these tests, because I don’t know anybody who does.

[00:10:22] Gretchen: We always recommend that learning to take an SAT and an ACT is a learned skill.

[00:10:29] Natalie: Yes, it’s a learned skill.

[00:10:29] Gretchen: Don’t presume one and done. You need to financially plan to take those tests at least three times.

[00:10:36] Natalie: At least, and start early. Start early, because it’s all about test familiarity and being able to decode the question. What are they really asking? Not what it looks like, but it’s something else. It’s a lot simpler, but you got to be able to logically decode. That’s a whole other webinar, talking about SAT and ACT.

[00:10:58] Gretchen: It is. We do have a webinar that we did about a year ago that I’ll include in the resources that does reference what you and I are talking about right now. I think the important thing to recognize is you’re not going to be there overnight. That’s a learned skill. The woman with whom I present this webinar at homeschool conferences knew of a family who got full-ride scholarships for their twins to Vanderbilt.

What that mom did to prepare those kids is she got one of those big SAT books, took it apart, and they literally worked on questions every single day of their four years of high school. Walking in was not a scary experience. I think that’s a valuable thing to remember. Tell us now, not only did you do this when the information wasn’t as clear as it is now, but you did it from Italy. If you could do it from Italy, we ought to be able to do it on this side of the pond, right?

[00:11:56] Natalie: Yes, I agree. I totally agree. [laughs] I totally agree. The other thing I want to say, too, Gretchen, is that NCAA follows the graduation laws of your state. Just make sure you’re compliant with that because every state has different homeschool laws. If there’s specific laws that they address graduation, then just be sensitive to that. I think most homeschoolers know to take a look at that. Those are the things that come off the top. Those are the priorities that you really need to anchor. Follow that toolkit and make sure that you do everything it says and not anything differently. Don’t do something that, for example–

[00:12:44] Gretchen: Don’t make it up.

[00:12:45] Natalie: Yes, don’t make it up. Right, don’t make it up. Exactly.

[00:12:48] Gretchen: As homeschoolers, we’re used to innovating. In this instance, I don’t think innovation is going to serve you well.

[00:12:54] Natalie: That’s what I was trying to say. Exactly.

[00:12:54] Gretchen: You just have to follow all the points that they outline for you.

[00:12:58] Natalie: Yes. Exactly. We’re so innovative, and I love us, but not in this case. They’ve told you what they want. The other thing is, a lot of times, families struggle with understanding what’s the process with this eligibility, and even going through the toolkit. That’s why I say you’re going to have to go through and read it and read it again, and then just take a deep breath. Don’t get panicky about it because once you get through it, you’re going to go, “Oh, I get that.” It’s just right now, it looks daunting.

Again, just take your time, go through it. I even recommend for families who have students who are athletes who have great potential who have expressed some interest in continuing to play beyond high school at a university, at a Division I or Division II, or Division III, I tell parents, when they’re young, start to anticipate this process and get ahead of it. Specifically, like eighth grade, download that toolkit, get familiar, so you don’t feel that stress. It’s not added to what you feel.

[00:14:09] Gretchen: I think it’s also really important to recognize if your child is going to be a student athlete at a Division I or Division II school, they need to understand how this process works. You don’t just deliver them to the school.

[00:14:24] Natalie: Exactly.

[00:14:25] Gretchen: They’re going to need to be as integrally involved with the process as you as a parent are.

[00:14:31] Natalie: Exactly. There’s a Division I, II, and III. The NCAA, all those divisions fall under. They are totally different paths, per se. Division I and II, that toolkit it’s what’s going to help you get down that path. Division III doesn’t have those requirements. The requirements for Division III literally fall to the Division III school. It’s a little bit of a difference there. Families have to really figure out early enough which path is the one they want. What I mean by that is, the way that typically I like to say it’s like, “Division I, athletics is super important.”

That’s for a student who is willing to put their whole self into this whole four years that they’re going to be playing athletically high. It’s all about the sport, not all glory. It’s a lot of work. I tell parents, “Make sure you help your student understand what they are asking for, what they want to do, and that they’re willing to commit that.” Then you have the idea of this broken leg test, is that make sure that the school that you accept a scholarship from, a D-I or D-II, make sure that it’s a school that your student would love to still be at even if they couldn’t play the sport.

[00:15:59] Gretchen: Very good point. I think that makes a lot of difference. One of my children’s friends swam for a Division I school, which shall remain nameless, but he found that the school itself was not the environment he wanted to be in. He actually was able to transfer to a Division I school in another part of the country, but that’s hard work.

[00:16:26] Natalie: It’s hard work.

[00:16:26] Gretchen: You’ve got to know what you’re doing.

[00:16:28] Natalie: Right. You’re right.

[00:16:30] Gretchen: This is just one of many facets. You should be visiting the campus, having conversations, and doing those kinds of things as your child is in high school.

[00:16:41] Natalie: Exactly, because things happen. Athletes get injured. They get injured to where they can’t play anymore. You don’t want that to happen, but it’s also part of the conversation that you need to have, “Is this school you want to be at? Do you see yourself here academically?” It’s really important. Then check the school and see what type of academic advisors they have.

Our youngest daughter that played D-I was picked up to play at Liberty University. That was her number one choice to play at. She had gone to a college-bound camp at UNC-Chapel Hill, which is the straight pathway to pro after college for females, for sure. The atmosphere she experienced during that week or two of summer camp was not what she wanted.

[00:17:33] Gretchen: Not what she was looking for. No.

[00:17:35] Natalie: She said, “Mom, I want to go to the summer-bound, college-bound athletic camp at Liberty.” We literally were overseas. We came back–

[00:17:47] Gretchen: I was going to say, you’re orchestrating this here while being in Naples.

[00:17:52] Natalie: Exactly. [crosstalk] We came back for her to go to camp. My parents, thank God for parents who are still here in the States. They helped a lot and got her there. Then it was from that experience and also getting offered the opportunity, she was like, “Okay.” She was a starter all four years, was one of their key players, and loved soccer. It was ice baths, imagine that. You have to love the sport enough that you’re going to tolerate ice baths, sitting in tubs of ice because it’s good for your body, but it won’t feel good. You have to really love it.

You have to really realize that a lot of your time, if not most, all of it, is going to be getting through your academics and the athletics. There’s not a lot of time for anything else with D-I. It really isn’t. The schedule is grueling, the practice is grueling, the pace is grueling. You’re on the road more than you’re at campus. That academic advisor can help you with your classes in terms of– At Liberty, the academic advisor was able to secure their books, because they didn’t have time to go to bookstore. The academic advisor helped them with choosing classes that the professors were more willing to say, “Okay, you can take your test early or when you come back.” That kind of thing.

Find a school that has that type of assistance to your athlete because they’re going to be really tied up. That’s Division I. Division II is a balance, high athletics, high academics. You have a little bit more of your life back. There are some other nuances, but I’m just going high-level here. Then Division III is more about the college experience, the academics, and then the athletics it falls in. The quality of play is high. I’m not minimizing it, but it’s a different focus for your student.

[00:19:54] Gretchen: It is. My youngest son was recruited by Division I schools and really intended to swim in Division I. At the end of his junior year, he said, “This scale, to balance this scale, is not what I want anymore.” I think it’s important for parents to understand you had a child from the age of eight who said they wanted to play soccer. I had a child at the age of six who said they wanted to swim. You have to hold those goals loosely because they may change their mind.

[00:20:26] Natalie: Yes. Right. They may change their mind. I tell parents, if you think the student has a chance, is good enough, and expresses a desire, or even if they don’t but you know in your spirit, “This child might want to play in college,” start the process, get a free account, you can convert it, get a free account, and then start the process. It won’t hurt anything. It’s better. The reason I say that is the big piece of this process is something called Core Course Worksheets. You probably saw that in that toolkit. We call it CCW. That’s the headache. That’s the headache.

[00:21:10] Gretchen: That’s where I spent the majority of my time reading today. It’s important that you, as a parent, understand, but it’s equally important that your student understands why you’re making these requirements necessary for them.

[00:21:27] Natalie: Oh, yes. Definitely. You’re right, Gretchen. Again, another thing I tell parents is, “This is their dream, so you need to let them know, ‘This is your dream. In order to get to a chance to fulfill your dream, to have success with what you say you want, this is the path we have to go on.’ This is not me as mommy or me as daddy, homeschool mom and dad saying, Oh yes, do this, this, this. This is the process.” We are either in it together or we’re not, right?

[00:22:01] Gretchen: That’s like a two-edged coin, because as homeschool families, we’re used to that degree of wild independence that we chart our own course. Now you’re going to have to color in the lines. That’s a different [crosstalk]–

[00:22:16] Natalie: I love that. I love that. You got to color in the lines. That’s great, Gretchen. Color in the line. They have to do the coloring. That’s [unintelligible 00:22:25]

[00:22:26] Gretchen: Let’s talk a little bit about that color in the line.

[00:22:28] Natalie: Sure. Yes.

[00:22:29] Gretchen: Let’s talk about Division II, because that’s split in the middle. In a Division II school, the requirements are 16 courses. That is meted out as three years of English, two years of math, two years of science, three years of an extra English, math, or science. Then two years of social science and four years of additional academics. We’re talking 16 courses that your student has to complete according to the NCAA’s eligibility requirements.

[00:23:09] Natalie: Right. They have to be college preparatory courses. They understand students are going to have way more than that because you have four years and you got to create a transcript. They don’t care about the other stuff. They give you eight semesters from ninth grade. The clock starts ticking at ninth grade. You’ve got eight semesters. By the beginning of your seventh semester, which is senior year, you have to have completed 10 of those 16. They call it the 10-7. 10 of those 16.

It makes sense. It’s because if you haven’t, you’re not going to. You don’t have enough time. They tell you, “This is the requirement.” There’s not a whole lot of difference between the requirements for D-I and D-II, really. The 16 is going to stay the same, the 10-7, the 8 semesters from 9th grade, that type of thing. The number of credits change just a little bit per category. The other thing I want to mention is there’s this category that’s– I think it’s called– What is it called? World Religion.

[00:24:24] Gretchen: Oh, yes.

[00:24:25] Natalie: I’ve had many of my fellow Christian homeschoolers ask, “Oh, they can’t do Bible and all.” Really, they are saying go not necessarily where the courses– What am I going to say? Not courses that are doctrine. That’s what they don’t want. It’s more, “You can study religion, but it’s not doctrinal,” if that makes sense. Just to help us understand. All the extras that we do are totally fine. Those will go on the transcript because you do have to submit a transcript.

They tell you what they want on the transcript, which is pretty much what most transcripts have. I know HSLDA, for example, we have an online store for families that– You don’t even need to be a member. You can go in and use the transcript service. There’s plenty of other resources for transcripts. Just look and see, make sure that what they say they require, which is pretty common, you have on your transcript. [crosstalk]

[00:25:28] Gretchen: I love the fact that the toolkit gave you an example of-

[00:25:31] Natalie: Yes, it gave you an example.

[00:25:32] Gretchen: -“This is what it would look like.” [crosstalk] we’re going, “I don’t know what that looks like-

[00:25:38] Natalie: It tells you.

[00:25:38] Gretchen: -you’ll find out here shortly.”

[00:25:39] Natalie: Exactly. When we went through the process, Gretchen, we had to use their transcript template. We had to use it. They no longer mandate a transcript template of theirs, but they do tell you what you need to follow.

[00:25:53] Gretchen: Sure. They also give you two options for grading, which I thought was really interesting: either letter or numeric. You need to understand how they define the difference because I think that would be important as well.

[00:26:09] Natalie: Yes, and be consistent. Whichever way you grade, be consistent across all of your courses. The other thing that’s really important is there’s something that families don’t often realize. They’re looking at these CCW, this requirement, the Core Course Worksheet. What that means is all of those 16 core courses, each one of them, has to have this worksheet filled out. It tells you you need to use the one that they have. Don’t create a CCW yourself. Use that one that they have. They go through and they ask you certain things about each course. One thing I would say is, say, you have a student that’s ninth grade and they finished ninth grade, get those CCWs done.

[00:27:04] Gretchen: Sure. Don’t wait until they’re here and you’re trying to remember what they did three years ago.

[00:27:09] Natalie: Impossible.

[00:27:09] Gretchen: Can’t remember what I had for breakfast.

[00:27:10] Natalie: Impossible. Talk about stress, because we know, all of senior year, it’s a lot of stress, not only on our students, but on us as parents, because they’re looking to us, “I need this, this, this. I need this, this, this. I need my transcript. I need my course description sometime. Now you’re talking about CCWs. How many CCWs are you talking about?”

[00:27:32] Gretchen: You didn’t abdicate that they became the only child in this process. You’ve got other fish to fry, so–

[00:27:40] Natalie: Right. Most homeschoolers have other–

[00:27:42] Gretchen: That’s good advice [crosstalk]–

[00:27:43] Natalie: Yes. Most homeschoolers have other fish to fry. Exactly. Right. Other kids, right?

[00:27:48] Gretchen: I thought it was also interesting that you cannot use CLEP to qualify for course material.

[00:27:57] Natalie: They don’t allow CLEP.

[00:27:57] Gretchen: That surprised me.

[00:27:59] Natalie: They don’t allow CLEP. Another thing that, if you get panicky about the CCW, look at dual enrollment for your student, because you don’t have to complete a CCW for a dual enrollment course. You just request that transcript and it’s sent directly to the NCAA. It is a little easier if you have a student who is able to do at that level, which ideally should, because that’s the whole point of the eligibility process, is they’re taking college prep courses. At a certain age, whenever your local community college allows. It could be 16, 15. It varies across the country.

[00:28:41] Gretchen: It depends on the state you’re in.

[00:28:42] Natalie: Doesn’t it?

[00:28:44] Gretchen: Some states, you can do dual enrollment, and it costs you nothing except a book.

[00:28:48] Natalie: Exactly. Right. I know.

[00:28:50] Gretchen: It’s important for you to do your homework-

[00:28:52] Natalie: Yes, in advance.

[00:28:52] Gretchen: -or have your student do the homework.

[00:28:55] Natalie: Yes. I know. That’s what I advocate: help your student. That’s that transition from K through 8th as a homeschool parent and 9th through 12th. That difference is now you’re starting to transfer responsibility, decision-making, where you step into role of a mentor, a guidance, versus, “We’re going to do this, this, this, this.” Now you’re like, “Okay, this is what you need to do. What do you want to do within this, and how are you going to get it done? I’m here to help you, but I’m not driving the car anymore.” We’re passing the keys over. Hopefully, they’ve done driver’s ed. You’ve been helping them become more independent.

The other thing that I want to mention for families, too, is you submitting this paperwork like we just suggested, 9th grade, 10th grade, all, don’t expect to hear anything back from the NCAA once you submit. You submit all your CCWs for ninth, it’s going to be quiet. Don’t panic, because they will not process, evaluate, look at any of that paperwork. They will keep it until your student is on the institutional request list. It’s called the IRL. Families don’t know that. How does your student get on the IRL? A coach that is interested that’s scouting your student needs to request your student to be put on the IRL.

[00:30:37] Gretchen: Now, let’s be clear, that’s the coach from the college they’re interested in matriculating at.

[00:30:42] Natalie: Right. You’re right. It’s not your high school or your homeschool soccer coach, it’s the school, the D-I, D-II. They have to request that. That’s just a request. You’re not being offered anything. Your student’s not being offered anything. It’s just that saying the coach is interested in your student. Then the NCAA then does the work, because imagine doing all that work and there are students that just may not have a coach that– They may not get that opportunity. There are so many athletes that are phenomenal that this is a highly competitive process.

It doesn’t, like I said, guarantee a lot of money, because what happens is they have to share– The coach at the college has to say, “Well, we still have these sophomore juniors and seniors that are on scholarship. Then we have our incoming freshmen, so we have to divvy up how many incoming freshmen that we are going to accept how much money we can give.” They allocate percentage-wise based on that. It’s not apples to apples. You don’t always know. They don’t tell you how. You could get 20%. You could get 40%. You won’t get 100%.

[00:32:05] Gretchen: I think it’s important for parents to recognize that you’re really going to spin with your student three plates. You’re going to spin the plate of academics. You’re going to spin the plate of exploration of where they might be able to matriculate and play. Then you’re going to spin the plate of what NCAA requires them to complete to be eligible for that plate of play. Natalie, in these last couple of minutes, what would you have as closing words for our audience?

[00:32:37] Natalie: Again, my heart goes out to the families who really are getting really afraid and they really pivot back to public school.

[00:32:46] Gretchen: It’s not scary. It’s just work.

[00:32:48] Natalie: Yes, it’s just work. It’s just work. You can do it. So many athletes are doing it. I really know that if you just follow the tool kit and, like I said, reach out for help, you have a chance.

[00:33:02] Gretchen: Natalie, you did this with your daughter. Paul Harvey us. Give us the rest of the story as far as her experiences. Was playing college soccer what she anticipated it to be?

[00:33:13] Natalie: Playing college soccer was all-encompassing, and it was what she wanted because she loved soccer, and she still plays now to this day, but it was a lot of pressure. Not from us, just probably more from her. Athletes who really love a high level of play they’re hard on themselves. She was like, “Oh, I know I could do better and do better.” Not in a dysfunctional way. She just figured out. She knew what her capacity was and everything.

Now she plays for fun, even though it counts if her team wins or not. She plays for fun. It’s a different level. I know after she finished and graduated, she finished with being one of the VIPs for the Big South Conference. That was super exciting. We were able to be back in the States for the last two years of her junior, senior year. We were able to travel and see some of the games. That was super awesome. Then she did get an opportunity to play. She got scouted for an opportunity in Verona, Italy, so she did go back over.

She was the first player that this team was going to have. They didn’t really do their homework, so she didn’t get to play. She did have an amazing experience over there. We did learn a little bit about that post-college playing field and all. Some things that I would say, that if you have an athlete who wants to play professionally, not all D-Is are the same. Not all D-Is are the same. You have to look at that.

[00:34:48] Gretchen: We found that to be our experience with [crosstalk]–

[00:34:51] Natalie: Not all D-Is lead to that path and everything. We have done something differently. Liberty fit her in a lot of ways. Again, that broken leg. You have to figure that out. What of UNC-Chapel Hill? It probably would have led her to the pro that she really thought she wanted. Would she have been happy there? God knows. God knows. God knows. I thought it was good.

[00:35:16] Gretchen: I love the fact that you recognize that that was her goal and her dream. Sometimes, as parents, we get a little confused.

[00:35:26] Natalie: Yes. Just a little bit.

[00:35:27] Gretchen: We want it so much for our children that we’re going to move heaven and earth to make it happen. It’s a collaborative experience.

[00:35:39] Natalie: It’s a collaborative experience. We had our sons after. One or two of them were like, “Oh, mom, I know you want us to play in college.” I said, “No. If you want to play in college, I know we need to start early. No, this is not my dream.” They were like, “Oh, Okay.” They just were able to play through high school and it was totally fine. It was just her dream. Recognizing each child that you have is totally different, right?

[00:36:06] Gretchen: Right. I’m going to recommend one more resource we’re going to include in the notes, that is, how do you know that it’s your child’s dream and not yours? I read a book this spring that really still rolls around in my mind. It’s by Jennifer Breheny Wallace. The book title is Never Enough.

[00:36:28] Natalie: Oh, wow.

[00:36:29] Gretchen: It’s talking about the achievement culture we have created and being careful to recognize where our desire for our students’ success ends and where they really embrace that desire for their own. I think this would be a good thing for parents to recognize and acknowledge in this process, because it’s a lot of work.

[00:36:52] Natalie: It’s a lot of work, yes. It’s worthy, it is good, but they have to drive it. They have to go for it.

[00:36:57] Gretchen: Absolutely. Natalie, I want to thank you for spending this time with me today. Can you all see how valuable she is as a resource?

[00:37:04] Natalie: Oh, thank you.

[00:37:05] Gretchen: I can’t even begin to tell you how much I appreciate her. The fact that we’ve had this conversation, which so many parents are trying to unpack and figure out, Natalie’s done a lot of homework here for y’all. We’re going to have great show notes. Don’t forget to consult those. Thank you so much for being here today, my friend. I appreciate it.

[00:37:24] Natalie: Thank you, Gretchen. I appreciate you so much. Thank you.

[00:37:27] Gretchen: All right. We’ll talk again soon. Take care. To all of you who joined us today, thank you for allowing us into your living rooms. We appreciate it so much. We don’t take that lightly. We’ll look forward to your joining us again soon. Take care, everyone.

[00:37:42] Announcer: Thanks again for joining us. We’re glad to be a part of your educational community. You can help us grow our community even more by rating, reviewing, and subscribing to the show wherever you may be hearing this. Don’t forget that you can access the show notes and watch a recording at demmelearning.com/show, or on our YouTube channel. We’ll see you again next time. Until then, keep building strong foundations for lifelong learning.

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