[00:00:05] Gretchen Roe: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to The Demme Learning Show. This is Gretchen Roe, and I am so thrilled to welcome my friend Ann Wirtz today to talk to you about the importance of correspondence. Ann is a beautifully published poet and authoress, and she has lots of things to tell you. I’m excited that you guys are going to have the next hour to hear from her because her wisdom is vast. Ann, I’m delighted to welcome you. Please tell our audience all about you.

[00:00:37] Ann Wirtz: Wow. Thank you so much. It’s such an honor. It’s such a thrill. You’ll never know what it means to me. I’m from the Midwest. I was born in Wichita, Kansas, and I was a third-generation Kansan. When I was three months old, we moved to Webster Groves, Missouri, a suburb of St. Louis. That’s where I grew up, and it was a wonderful place to grow up. I had, I would say, a very idyllic childhood. It was one of those places where you have roots and wings. With a wonderful foundation of family and life, and involvement, I went forward in life.

I went to Bradley University in Peoria and got my bachelor’s in teaching. I became an elementary school teacher. I’ve taught third through sixth grade. Then I became a reading specialist and got my master’s at Illinois State University in Normal, Illinois. Along the way, I got engaged on my first date. I married my husband when I had finished my freshman year of college, yes. I tell about it in my book, Letters: Our American Story. It’s a fun little story in there. People say, “Is that really true? Did you not know this person you got engaged to?” I say–

[00:01:50] Gretchen: I read that, and I had to read it twice. I’m like, “No, she really didn’t do this.” You might have to explain that just a little bit.

[00:01:59] Ann: I had a friend just the other day at lunch say, “Didn’t you know him at all?” I said, “No, I didn’t know him at all.” You have to get the book. Maybe you put it that way. I met him through a sorority encounter. We both sparkled at each other with our eyes. The next day, he called me, and I said, “I can’t go out. I’m studying for a test.” He said, “Well, let’s do it.” I said, “Okay.” I wasn’t too hard to please on that. We went out, and I knew, and he knew that evening we were going to marry each other. The strange thing was, he was 10 years older.

I prayed about it, which is humorous because when I called my mother the next day, I said, “Well, Mom, I met this guy, and we went out, and I got engaged. You know what? I prayed about it.” She came up the next week, and she said, “Don’t you want to wait?” I’m like, “I’m 18. I’m going to do it my way.” This is 1966. We are of that generation where you get to make your decisions. I did. We got married that August. Honestly, my parents were so dear. They trusted me. They loved me. They supported me. They helped me along the way.

[00:03:16] Gretchen: I just loved the way you conveyed your mother’s response to that because it was obvious how deeply she loved you. Had I told my mother the same thing, my mother would have come unglued in the way only a Webster Groves Midwesterner could, considering she grew up in Webster Groves as well.

[00:03:40] Ann: It’s fascinating to me. In this book, Letters: Our American Story, I have letters from my mother, letters from my in-laws. These people in my life were people who loved people, who loved me. They conveyed their message of hope and encouragement. I kept those letters because they were so valuable. I’m able to share them in my book. When you read the book, and you read these letters, you see the heart of these people. I’m a very blessed person to have family like that.

Then I moved to Hendersonville– We started a gift shop in Wisconsin. We moved to Hendersonville, North Carolina, in 2002. My husband died from cancer. Then I remarried. God had a plan for me. I married Patrick in 2006. Praise the Lord. I have one son and two wonderful grandchildren.

[00:04:34] Gretchen: That’s pretty amazing. Now, did you ever work as an educator in schools?

[00:04:41] Ann: I did. I did teach grades three through six. That was wonderful and fun. I did become a reading specialist. I love that. I was a Chapter One reading teacher for several years. Honestly, my teaching career was interspersed because my first husband was an entrepreneur. We started businesses, and we moved a lot. I had that experience. Yes, I did teach. I loved it. I understand the heart of a teacher.

[00:05:10] Gretchen: I think the first time I met you, I asked you if you were a teacher. I did not know at the time what you had done. There’s some aura that you have that just exudes that I can relate to any age, and I’m going to pull out the best in you. That’s a really cool thing to be.

[00:05:29] Ann: One of the things that comes out of my book is the influence of teachers on my life. I speak about it in my book.

[00:05:36] Gretchen: You do.

[00:05:37] Ann: I had a wonderful teacher who wrote me the most beautiful letter. I have it in my book. I saved it all these years. That’s from 1962 or ‘3. She was such an encourager. When I became a teacher, I became an encourager. I always feel that probably my greatest strength as a teacher was compassion, the love of learning, wanting to instill the love of learning, but also compassion for those who never had that thought. It’s so wonderful to be able to take children and move them along and help them see themselves as valuable people. Anyway, I love teaching.

[00:06:22] Gretchen: You’re still teaching. You’re just teaching through a different genre now. Ann, we had so many questions today, and I know that you have pored over those questions and thought about them. I want to ask the one that spoke to me the most because I felt like this particular parent was inside my head, and that was the one that she said, “I don’t have letters of my own, but I’d like to send them to my children, but when I sit down to write, I don’t know what to say.” What would you tell her?

[00:06:55] Ann: I’ll tell you. That was one of my most favorite questions because, wow, do I have a lot to say. In my book, as I mentioned, I have these wonderful letters from my mother, my mother-in-law, my father-in-law. It’s fascinating. My father-in-law, this would be William Eugene Greenleaf, my first husband’s father. I have three of his letters in my book because they are profound. They are sensitive. They are loving. They’re overwhelming. All the letters that I chose for this book have a relatable concept, a relatable idea, kind of an, “Uh-uh, oh, yes, I feel that way too.”

I believe each letter provides a way for the reader to connect to another human being and to the whole cosmos of our world. We all are humans. We all have the same emotions, and these letters convey that. I wanted to share a little bit from my book to demonstrate things you can say and write in your letter. Obviously, the most obvious ones, share your life, share family experiences, share your love of nature, share your love, share your encouragement, share your hopes, share your dreams. I’m saying express your heart. None of it has to be fancy. None of it has to be grand.

I’m going to show you how beautiful some of this can be. This letter was from Mary Vanderhorst Greenleaf. She was my first husband’s mother. They lived in Peoria, Illinois. Mary’s letter was from March 21st, 1960. It is a lovely reflection on the season. I’m going to quote two things because she was such a profound writer. She was so simple in her expression, and yet she conveyed such emotion. “As simple as a season.” She wrote, “I’m sure spring can’t be far away. The almanac says a big snowstorm again this weekend. Maybe it will be wrong. Anyway, the birds are getting to talk in spring-like tones.” I thought that was exquisite. “Can you ever listen to a bird singing in the spring and not grasp that spring-like tone?” I thought that was tremendous.

[00:09:17] Gretchen: It’s funny. Yesterday morning, I was up very early. Not intentionally. I had a dog who got me up. I thought of that because I was out back, and the sound is so clear and pure at that hour. I thought, what an amazing observation that she made of that.

[00:09:38] Ann: You’ll never forget it now, and neither will I. She said, “Saturday, I was in the backyard and noticed some tulips up three or four inches. Nature seems to be impatient to start another season.” She’s just talking about her garden, the beauty of her garden. Then, I absolutely love this. To the simplest of sentences in that same letter, she expresses the profoundness of thought, quote, “Sometimes I think we are pretty awful, myself included, lack of insight, maturity, and just when things get to going well, suddenly they don’t.” Don’t we relate to that? “All in all, I guess we’re no better or worse than any other people.”

That’s profound to me because how many times in life, as I just said, we’re going along and all of a sudden, what happens? We’re dealing with problems or issues arise, and it’s like, “Why?” Because we’re human, because sometimes we lack insight. Anyway, I just love her writing, but her husband, oh my gosh, William Eugene Greenleaf. We called him Gene. He was known as Gene. His letters are exquisite. I have to read this. I didn’t write it all out, so I’m just going to read to you. We were moving from northern Wisconsin. We were moving to a place called Whitehall, Wisconsin, and it was in between La Crosse and Eau Claire.

We had looked for a home. He was counseling. We looked for a home. Took forever to find one, but we finally did. There was a lot of period of time. Our son had just been born in August. He was down there working. I was home alone, but finally we found a home. His dear father wrote this amazing letter, and it’s dated October the 25th of 1972. He said, “To say the least, I’m glad you have purchased a house and will soon be in it. This change will afford you many changes, challenges, readjustments, trials, victories. The love you have for each other will be your sunshine in the dark, your warmth when things seem cold, your happiness when things could have been sad, your confidence and determination in the future in the face of many odds, and three finer ones never have I met.”

[00:12:19] Gretchen: That’s pretty amazing. Ann, how old were you when those letters were written to you?

[00:12:26] Ann: I got married one month shy of 19, so I was 18 years old, and that was 1967. Our son was born in August of 1972, so I’m 23, 22, 23 then. I had my birthday, so I would have been 23 when he wrote that letter to us in 1972.

[00:12:46] Gretchen: I think it’s remarkable that you had the wherewithal to think, “These are going to be important someday. I’m going to hold on to them.”

[00:12:53] Ann: I don’t even know that I thought that, except that– One of your questions was interesting. One of the first ones, it was about what do you save? How do you know what to do? How do you encourage somebody to save letters, for example? My answer to that was that our personality indicates what we’re going to do. If we have an inclination to save things, and usually women and girls fit that category, we’re inclined to save something meaningful, like a letter from a parent that we had.

Even when I was in grade school, I loved postcards, and my friends would send me postcards. This postcard, an adorable little kitty, why wouldn’t I save that? This is from actually 1960, and I saved it. This one’s even older. This is actually remarkable. This is from Onekama, Michigan, and it was one of my best friends. I speak about her in my book. She was a neighbor. She sent this in August of 1956. This postcard is 70 years old in August. She was writing to talk about her visit to her grandmother’s home in Michigan.

I saved it because I love pictures. I’m a very visual person, and I do think people who are visual, the visual of the letter, the visual of postcards, and not even just postcards. I saved a lot of cards themselves. I talk about them in my book. I even describe them and why I saved them. I’m in the dilemma now where I’m going to eventually be downsizing. What I put in my book, believe me, I have a whole bunch more. It’s like I can’t keep it all, and I’ll have to get rid of some of that. I’m grateful I saved it. I think in the end, the catalyst for my book, the reason for my book, was my father’s World War II letter from 1945.

What was fascinating about that, I didn’t know anything about the letter, number one. Number two, it was sent to my aunt and uncle, Agnes and Jim Hacker, in California. It was sent in 1945 as a thank-you note to them for sending him a knife. Oh my gosh, he wrote page after page, handwritten, of his experiences driving a tank across Europe. The most remarkable thing, he liberated Dachau. He was one of the soldiers that went in and liberated Dachau. He talks about it. He explains a little about it. He describes it. My aunt and uncle got that letter, and they wrote on the envelope, “Save.” They knew it was valuable.

[00:15:43] Gretchen: Oh, how wonderful.

[00:15:45] Ann: They saved it.

[00:15:45] Gretchen: You come from a family of savers.

[00:15:48] Ann: Yes, we do. We knew about World War II. Anyway, I didn’t receive the letter until 1977. I moved my mother out to California. My aunt brought me into the bedroom, and she said, “Here, I’ve had it all these years. I want you to have it.” I have sent copies of that to World War II museums. I actually sent a copy to the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. Interesting. I have the letter in my book.

Their response was, “Thank you. It’s amazing. It’s wonderful. We can’t have a copy because of Holocaust deniers. We cannot display this because of– We will put it in our archives, and it’ll be something for people who are doing research could come across it.” Unless I sent them the actual letter for them to display, it would not display.

[00:16:37] Gretchen: Isn’t that interesting how we have history that’s so plain and clear, and yet we have people who pretend that it’s not?

[00:16:47] Ann: It’s true. The letter was always a vehicle to try to– I was always trying to figure out the vehicle. I became a writer after my first husband died in 2004. I wrote a book, Sorrow Answered. It’s available on Kindle version through Amazon. Out of that writing, after that, my husband’s death, my Lord just spoke to my heart. He said, “Start writing. Start telling your story. Start explaining.”

After I wrote that, I ended up writing a book about the history of our curb market here in town. That came out in 2010. Then I had this letter. What do I do with it? I played with ideas, which didn’t work out. Some of the writing was good, but it was not– “This isn’t working.” At that point, the Lord directed me to writing my poetry book, which was pure joy, Our Lives in Verse, Everyday Poetry with my heart.

[00:17:48] Gretchen: This is such a fun book. It’s such a great insight into you that I got such a kick out of it. I got a present, so I got to read it. I actually took it with me on my last trip. I loved it because one of the questions that prompted me from this is, were you a poet who became a writer or a writer who became a poet?

[00:18:16] Ann: That’s a hard one. I have to go back to elementary school. I suppose at that point, you’re playing with stories. You’re writing stories. At the same time, teachers are probably also saying, “Here’s how you write a poem.” I think I’ve had a mutual love for both. In terms of my actual writing career, I was writing nonfiction. Those were the nonfiction books that came out. I love poetry. I’m a reader of poetry. I think I have 10 Ideal magazines, those beautiful booklets with all the– I’m a collector of poetry. I love poetry. I love playing with writing poetry.

Once my idea was not germinating about how to deal with my father’s letter, I had played with writing some poetry. I just again felt that voice of the Lord say, “Go for it, write.” Oh my gosh, it was truly one of the happiest things I ever did, was writing my poetry. I love writing poetry because it’s just fun. You get to play with words. You get to play. To me, it’s playing. Then, when it came out, I just felt, “Okay,” the vision for how to bring letters together came to me. The Lord said, “Do it this way,” and I did.

Even in Letters: Our American Story, I have poetry. I have poetry, a poem I wrote, and I have a poem that someone in my family wrote about my great-grandfather. Then, oh my gosh, the best thing of all. My granddaughter, precious girl, she just turned 16, Divya Greenleaf. Christmas, two years ago, we went down to see them in Florida, and she wrote me a beautiful little note. She gave me a poem that she had written. I had written her a poem about stuffed animals because we both love stuffed animals. She said, “Grammy, that poem was an inspiration to me. I thought, I’ll try writing a poem,” and she did.

She wrote the most amazing poem. It’s in Chapter 25. It’s in the month of December because her letter was received, and it’s called The Final Duet for Ill-Fated Lovers. This poem won first prize in a literary contest in Broward County, Florida, for rhyming poetry. She receives her award for that on May 11th. She told me she said– because I asked permission to put her poem in my book, and she gave me that permission. That’s an astounding– This girl was 14 when she wrote it. The depth of her ability to understand people, her sensitivity to people and relationships, her words, phenomenal. She’s a much better poet.

[00:21:12] Gretchen: I wonder why. [laughs]

[00:21:15] Ann: It is interesting. In writing my book, I do get into genealogy because I’ve been doing genealogy for 25 years. I’ve learned a lot of tremendous things and exciting things, but I would say this, everybody has tremendous genealogy. We all do. It doesn’t matter the who, the what, the when. The fact of it is we all have a tremendous genealogy to be proud of. Whatever it is, be proud of it. Anyway, she is through the Greenleaf side. She’s related to John Greenleaf Whittier. She’s also related to Langston Hughes on my side because Langston Hughes and I descend from a poet from England named Francis Quarles.

In Langston– the reason I know this is he talks about this. I tell about it in my book. He’s written about descending from this man. When I saw that, I’m like, “Well, I do too.” She descends from a lot of poets. T.S. Elliot is her cousin. His great-grandmother was a Greenleaf. She does have a lot of poetic genetics on both sides of her family, both the Greenleaf and my side. I was a Brubaker. Anyway, she–

[00:22:27] Gretchen: Here’s what I thought was unique and marvelous about that. It was encouraging to me in this day of 90-second TikToks and text messages that you have to read out loud so that you know what they say, that she had the wherewithal to write that beautiful piece of poetry. That’s just remarkable. Are you going down for the award?

[00:22:54] Ann: I’m not. I’m not. My heart will be there. I’m so happy for her. It’s such an encouragement for her. Interesting, she has more of a science track in mind for her future. We all have things within us that are just waiting to be discovered. I could never have conceived of writing a poetry book in my life. I could never have conceived of writing this book. God inspires us. People inspire us. Other literature inspires us. If we just allow ourselves to be inspired, we can do a lot of things and discover a lot of things about ourselves.

[00:23:34] Gretchen: Yes. How do we impart that inspiration into the next generation? Now, you explained with your granddaughter that you wrote her a poem, and that was the impetus for her to then try writing poetry. How do we make that happen in the 10-second generation?

[00:23:55] Ann: I have three words that I think are kind of overall, over everything I may be saying. They’re the words awareness, knowledge, and understanding. As parents, as grandparents, as teachers, educators, trying to impart what’s valuable, we know their value. We just have to help our children to know that. We model it. We write it. We do it. I would never in the world have dreamed that writing my little poem about stuffed animals would inspire the poem she wrote. I couldn’t have conceived of it. I didn’t write it for that reason. You are so right. It was an inspiration. That’s true for all of our children.

There are ways to communicate with them, to convey what’s important to us. A poem is important to me, expressing my feelings and my thoughts. I like doing that, helping our children to embrace that for themselves. Why? Because it makes them more well-rounded people. It gives them a greater awareness of history, of genealogy, of who they are in the world. Homeschooling parents, in particular, you get to make your curriculum. You follow curriculum, obviously. There’s a guide you follow. Within that guideline, you do wonderful things, whole language things. You go to art museum. You go to the fire station or the police station, or you go visit an exhibit. You broaden.

You broaden your children’s thinking and awareness purposely because life is broad, because we have so much to enjoy and to appreciate. Then, incorporating into lessons, for example, like a homeschooling parent, write a thank-you note to the fire department. Write a thank-you note to the police department. Write a thank-you note to grandma after her– It’s a deliberate choice. One of the questions, too, dealt with the fact that, “How do you do that?” You model it. You choose to do it. You discipline yourself to do it. You teach somebody how to do it.

In school, when I was teaching, we used to teach lessons on how to write letters, the greeting and the body of the letter, and the closing of the letter, and how to set it up, and how you write an envelope. We used to teach that.

[00:26:29] Gretchen: They don’t teach that anymore. That, to me, is appalling.

[00:26:33] Ann: It is. There’s a lot of disappalling about our educational system. Matter of fact, one of the questions was about cursive writing. I had to pull myself back on that because it’s an outrage. I understand that there was a period of time when the emphasis became STEM, science, math. I appreciate that. There needs to be that. I think what happened was an unintended consequence. The curriculum said, “Oh, we don’t have time for cursive writing. We only have time to do these things, so we’re going to eliminate that, and they’ll just pick it up someday.”

Then the irony of this whole thinking was they don’t pick it up. It’s tragedy. They don’t know how to read it. That is astounding to me. My understanding is that school systems are now incorporating cursive writing. I hope that’s true. I don’t know that it’s universal, but some are. It has to be, because they have lost. They can’t read the declaration. They can’t read my letter. They’re not going to be able to read their great-grandparents’ letters. They can’t read their grandfather’s letter, the World War II letter. It’s all in cursive. All of that is in cursive.

[00:27:57] Gretchen: As someone who walks in the world of special needs education, I find that parents, particularly parents of dyslexic children, they’re the ones who are teaching their children to write cursive because you can’t flip letters when you write in cursive.

[00:28:12] Ann: I was going to say that. That’s fascinating. I’m glad you said that because I was the reading specialist and the assistant administrator at Camperdown Academy in Greenville, South Carolina. I was there from 1990 to 1992, and then we moved. Oh, I love that job. It was the best job I’ve ever had. It was wonderful. I was a reading specialist. I was taught the Orton-Gillingham method of teaching phonics, which was wonderful. That’s how we taught our students. Then I was part administrator, which it was an honor to do that.

What was fascinating about that, they didn’t even teach how to print to students who are dyslexic in particular, because there’s such a disconnect with the letters. I do know that one way to teach a print is you always start on the same point, and then you have that go over to create the letter, which is not how I was taught it. They found that teaching cursive was far more successful because the brain connects those letters, they’re able to formulate those letters, they’re able to read those letters, and they’re able to read print as well. It is a much better use of your brain.

It is better for a student’s brain, honestly. It’s wonderful to learn printing, and obviously kids do, but it’s not for everyone, and children, especially who are dyslexic. The cursive works so much better for them. When school systems said, “Forget cursive,” they didn’t know. They could never have looked forward in the future and seen the problems. We know the problems now, so let’s incorporate it.

[00:29:53] Gretchen: My eldest son is 36. When he was growing up, he had the most abysmal handwriting ever. We teased him as a preteen that he was going to either have to be a doctor or a pharmacist because only those people could read his handwriting. He talks about being 19 years old and standing in the shower thinking, “I don’t have to have terrible handwriting.” Literally overnight, his handwriting changed. He brought me something that he had written. Actually, it was a piece of poetry.

I said, “Who wrote this?” He said, “I did.” I said, “You did not.” I didn’t get the June Cleaver Award. This is the kid who, as a young adult, majored in graphic design and typography and hand-calligraphied all of his wedding invitations, which to me is amazing. You don’t know what you’re going to get. The reason I tell that story is, try. You have to try.

[00:30:59] Ann: There’s maturity, too. There’s maturity, that eye-hand coordination, especially with boys. Sometimes we demand things from boys they’re not ready to do. They don’t have that. That skill hasn’t developed yet, but it did develop with your son. There was a moment in time when it all, “I can do it,” and he did it in spades. What a beautiful outcome for him. What an encouragement for people, for parents. We struggle with our kids if they’re not “perfect”. The perfect reader, the perfect writer, the perfect speller. We panic. “No, oh, no.” We work through it. There’s hope.

I think that was so fascinating about my mother-in-law’s letter that I read earlier. Maturity. Sometimes we don’t have the maturity yet to do things, to write things, to express ourselves, or to understand situations, but through time, it comes. Time is a great– while we say it’s a healer, it can be, but it’s also a great thing to help us develop who we are. We need time to develop who we are.

[00:32:09] Gretchen: Ann, now you have written a book about the curb market. You’ve written a book of poetry. You’ve written this book of letters. What’s the next project?

[00:32:19] Ann: I have one other. It was called, let’s see, Hand of Mercy. That was a true story about–

[00:32:26] Gretchen: Yes. I had forgotten that in the count.

[00:32:29] Ann: That’s okay, honey. It’s okay. It was a true story about a gentleman who was an 80-year-old person. He was an atheist. He was hit by a car. He had dreams that were very scary, but he also encountered the Lord. It was a wonderful true story. I have wondered about doing another poetry book. I have poems tucked away, and it’s such a happy thing. I’m contemplating doing a second poetry book. I’ve got my cover design. It’ll be this cover, but a different picture. I don’t know. We’ll see. I’ll be honest. Writing and compiling, and putting together letters took a lot out of me. It was a very–

[00:33:12] Gretchen: Well, that book is as much about genealogy as– I would like to be able to have a prop and hold it up here. You’ll have to hold it up because I read the Kindle version. There is as much genealogy in this. For instance, I was so impressed in your very first chapter where you were connecting the dots to the suffrage movement. So amazing. You had to do an extraordinary amount of research to make that happen. How did that happen?

[00:33:46] Ann: It took 10 years, really, to write the book. From the beginning of the first thought about how do I do it to the end. My mother kept a lot of genealogy information. I inherited some information about my great-grandmother, her grandmother. What was interesting, she was a brilliant woman. Which I didn’t know, but I learned through reading about her. She ended up in Manhattan, Kansas, where my grandmother went to school at Kansas State University. Her daughter ended up boarding with a woman named Annie Pillsbury Young. Annie Pillsbury Young was a friend of Susan B. Anthony’s.

Susan B. Anthony, in her letters, talks about coming from New York, where she was living, to visit her brothers in Kansas and to see Kansas. She got to know Annie. My great-grandmother became dear friends with Annie Pillsbury Young. Their hearts just knit. They both were brilliant women. They both had the same vision for women, that we can advance ourselves, that we can learn, that we can become something special through our knowledge, through our understanding. They were women committed to women.

Anyway, I knew this. I knew my grandmother founded this organization called the Tuesday PM Club, or the Tuesday Afternoon Club. That was in 1895. Annie worked with her. My great-grandmother was the founder and the first president. Annie Pillsbury Young was the second president. All that to say, I knew this information. I received letters, and I had received newspaper articles through a museum in Kansas. I got on the internet, and I was looking up Annie Pillsbury Young. All of a sudden, here comes this letter that Susan B. Anthony addressed to her friend, Annie, as well as to the Tuesday PM Club in Manhattan, Kansas. I’m like, “Oh, that’s my great-grandmother’s organization.”

From there, of course, more information. I contacted them. I talk about it’s with a group out of New York. I can’t pull up the name at the moment, but they have all kinds of archives of letters and historical information for women and the suffragette movement and all of that. It’s a wonderful resource. They had the letter and the envelope, and they were kind enough to give me a copy of that. It’s in my book. All that to say, when you’re doing research, you don’t know what you’re going to find. You don’t. That’s the joy. That’s the archaeological dig of search. You uncover amazing information.

[00:36:36] Gretchen: It must take a certain degree of fortitude, though, of patience, because it’s not easy to do the digging you did to write this book.

[00:36:48] Ann: I talk about how this first came about. It was in the year 2001. We were living in northern Wisconsin. We just finished Y2K. That year, it completed in a college called Nicolet Junior College in Rhinelander, which was near where we lived, where our son was born, actually. Had a genealogy class. My husband knew I liked genealogy, that I knew some things, and I wanted to learn more. He said, “Well, you should take it.” I thought, “I should.” I did. It was a four-week class. The lady said, “Well, down in Madison–” which is four hours south of where we live, “there’s the Historical Society building. They have the fourth largest genealogical records and books in our country.” I’m like, “My son’s in college there. I’m going.” I went down. I walked upstairs. I found my name. I talked about it in my book. My very first venture there, looking for my books, and here was a Brubaker genealogy book. Here was my name. Wow. That opened the door. Then I went back many times, other family names, other family. My beginning was not on the internet. My beginning with genealogy was actually books that had been written about family history. They are available. They’re available in Madison, Wisconsin. They’re available– I’m sure. Actually, our own library has genealogy books about family history. The whole internet thing did not come about for me until much later. This was in 2001. Golly, it was–

[00:38:27] Gretchen: I laughed when you were talking about Y2K because we were putting up food. We had the privilege of being able to go to a Seventh-day Adventist facility where they canned dried food and things like that. A bunch of homeschool moms went several times. I think I got rid of the last can of dried apples probably 10 years after Y2K. We had a whole basement full of food because we thought we were going to need it, right?

[00:39:02] Ann: We tried to shop when we didn’t. I’m glad we didn’t, of course. It’s tragic. Anyway, that’s how far back my whole genealogy experience began.

[00:39:13] Gretchen: Tell me then, what is your process? Did you do the genealogy and then the writing, or did you tell the story as you knew it and then looked for the genealogy to support it?

[00:39:28] Ann: Probably a little bit of both. I did over time. I must say this. There are two things that I recommend doing. If you can go to a place that has books and a resource like that, it is just thrilling. It’s thrilling. That’s a wonderful thing to do. The other thing I recommend– Oh my gosh, this changed my life. After I had gone and discovered the world of genealogy at the Historical Society in Madison, I began thinking about the Brubaker family, my maiden name. I knew my dad was born in Sawyer, Kansas. The Lord spoke to my heart one day, it was in August, and He said, “See if there are any brew bakers still there.” “Okay.” I got on the phone, and I called the– I think it was the local– oh, it wasn’t the police state, City Hall. I think it was the City Hall.

[00:40:21] Gretchen: Oh, my goodness.

[00:40:22] Ann: I said, “Are there any brew bakers still living there?” They laughed. The lady I talked to, she laughed, and she said, “Oh, yes, there are a bunch.” This was when people used to fax. She actually faxed me a telephone page, and here was Donald, my second cousin, and his brother Joel, my second cousin. I called them, and we started a wonderful friendship over the phone. After my husband died in 2004, our dream was always to go to Kansas because Sawyer, Kansas, is located in Pratt County. I was born in Wichita. Pratt County is about 90 miles west. Next to Pratt County was Kingman, Kansas, and that’s where Arie’s father was born.

Both our fathers were born in adjoining Kansas counties, my dad in 1910 and his dad in 1915. Our dream was to go there and see it all. Then my husband got cancer, and then he died. After he died, I thought, “Okay, I’m going. I’m going. I’m doing our dream.” I flew out to Wichita, Kansas, and Joel, Donald, and Arthena were the ones that picked me up. If you can ever meet your second cousins or your third cousins or any cousins that you never knew before, meet them, do it. They’re old German Baptist brethren. They look like Amish, but they drive cars, the prayer caps, the long dresses. I saw myself in them.

One of the most amazing things about genealogy, you learn about yourself. You learn about yourself. When you meet people who you’ve never met before, second cousins, distant people, and you think, “Oh, my gosh, I’m just like them, just like me.” That was the most valuable and important thing I probably almost ever have done. Meeting them-

[00:42:33] Gretchen: Really?

[00:42:34] Ann: -enhanced my life. They were so wonderful. Matter of fact, I took Patrick, my husband, that I married in 2006. He and I went to Kansas in 2008, and they loved him. They were thrilled for him, especially that I had remarried. They’re all deceased now. They have children that are there, but this little group of dear, dear people. I talk about them. I share their letters in the book. Oh, my gosh, their letters are so beautiful. They’re so simple and so beautiful. They’re so loving. They’re so caring. Your heart just is uplifted, and that’s who they were. Try to meet people when you do this genealogy thing.

The other thing, ancestry. Ancestry, absolutely invaluable. I’ve done others and my heritage, and there are other ones, family tree. Ancestry is a gold mine. It’s a gold mine. It doesn’t mean that everything you read is going to be 100%. You have to do your due diligence. You have to do your own research and checking and comparing and taking what you know and what your records tell you. Ancestry, I wouldn’t be where I am without ancestry. I couldn’t have written this book without ancestry. A lot of the newspaper articles are available through their newspaper opportunity, through ancestry. You learn, you discover, you unveil.

Whenever I say anything about my family, please understand, is this your family too? We’re all connected. If anything, this book says, we’re connected. We are. You get that far enough, we’re all connected. I discovered in the last five years that I descend from the Mayflower. Who would ever have thought it? You always wonder that when you’re doing genealogy. That’s like the gold standard question. Do you relate to the Mayflower? I was doing research. It was very fascinating. My great-grandmother was Scottish, so I knew I had Scottish heritage. I want to do your DNA test. Oh, my gosh, that’s so much fun. Then you find out who you are.

I was doing Scottish research, and I discovered Scottish ancestry on Martha’s Vineyard. Holy cow, did that unveil an unbelievable amount of research and world to me. I descend from 55 people born on Martha’s Vineyard.

[00:45:06] Gretchen: Wow.

[00:45:07] Ann: Born.

[00:45:09] Gretchen: That’s amazing.

[00:45:10] Ann: It’s amazing. It’s astounding. I have everything printed out. That came from doing a little bit of research about, who’s this Scottish person? Oh, Daniel Stewart. Then this unfolds, and then that unfolds, and then this unfolds, and then you learn that. Then you have names that you know about your family, and you find this connection and that connection. Honestly, and it was through that, Benjamin Franklin is my first cousin.

[00:45:37] Gretchen: Oh, my goodness. [chuckles] Yes, I do know that you had told me that. Before we get any further, I want to ask you about your writing process. I understand that you have a little birdie that we know, named Lizbeth, told me that you have very interesting writing schedules. Tell me. [laughs] I know what mine is like. Mine is like I can’t sleep, so I get up and do that. I might be writing a blog in the middle of the night.

[00:46:13] Ann: Especially finishing this book. Oh, my gosh. I know you’re working towards finishing a book. The pressure at the end to meet a deadline, to pull it together, to have it edited. I’m an editor. I love editing. Honestly, I’m very freaky. I love to take something and make it better. I love to take a sentence and write it better. For me, editing is fun. It really is. I edited my book, and it was fun. I changed a lot and fixed it, and made it better. Of course, it always can be better. It always can be better.

At the end, I was getting up, well, the very last day. I’ll put it this way. The Lord said– I was afraid. I didn’t know how I was going to do it. He said, “Get up at 1:00, and you can finish it by 5:00 in the morning when your husband gets up.” I did. Now, I do get up early. I would write at 2:00 in the morning, 3:00 in the morning. I’m an early bird, go to bed early, get up early. That’s my body clock. It’s not ideal, but it takes a toll.

[00:47:17] Gretchen: It does.

[00:47:18] Ann: When I sent this book in, and it was done, I was worn out. It took a lot out of me. Writing takes a lot out of anybody.

[00:47:28] Gretchen: It’s a little bit like giving birth.

[00:47:30] Ann: It’s very much like that. It’s exhausting. You put your heart into it, your soul into it, the whole creative process of it. It’s a joy, but it’s hard work. It’s hard work. You have to like it to do it.

[00:47:49] Gretchen: Now you said, how long did it take you to write this book? I know what the answer is, but I want you to say it.

[00:47:58] Ann: It was a 10-year idea, but I finished my poetry book in 2022. Once the poetry book was completed, I started playing with how am I going to deal with this book? Because I wanted to do something. I felt the encouragement from the Lord, “Okay, this is the format.” The format that I chose was to take the 12 months of the year, and then the letters slot into the different months. That was the format. Before, I was trying to do decades. No, that was bad. Taking the months of the year, slotting in the letters.

I have a letter from, and this is fun, people who are old enough. I don’t know if you remember Catherine Marshall. She wrote A Man Called Peter. When I was in high school, I was a big fan. I loved that book, and I loved the movie. I sent her a fan letter, which I put in my book because I kept it all those years. She wrote me a beautiful letter back, and it’s in my book. That’s from 1962 or so.

Then I have a letter from Elisabeth Elliot. A lot of people know Elisabeth Elliot because I was a fan of her writing and a fan of her. You still listen to her radio programs. Many of you listening will know her. I told her how much I loved her work. She sent me this beautiful postcard. I love her message. If you know Elisabeth Elliot and her writing, it’s just–

[00:49:19] Gretchen: Actually, the founder of my company was a boarder in Elisabeth Elliot’s home for a year. He has lots of stories about her, which is just quite remarkable.

[00:49:33] Ann: Well, we had these things. I would say from 2022, the book came out in– Well, it was published in, I think, December of ’25. It took me three years to really– Okay. I would say really the last year. Two of those years were play, play, play, try this. Then it was like, “Okay, we have the 250th anniversary in 2026. If you want this book to have any connection with anything that’s happening, it’s got to come out now.” That was pressure. I would say the last seven, eight months, great pressure, where I was writing all the time and getting up at 2:00 or 3:00 to write. Anyway, whatever. [laughs]

[00:50:24] Gretchen: I think it’s remarkable, too, that you have the ability to edit your own work. That requires a little bit of a cutthroat personality.

[00:50:37] Ann: I was telling you earlier, we were talking about your book that’s coming up, and I’m so excited for you. You’re going through now the editing process and what to keep, what to eliminate. Well, I got down to the end. Actually, August was the end. I had made a commitment to have my manuscript to them September 1st of 2025. On August 1st, I’m going through it. I took out 6,000 words. Part of my thinking was, I’m asking people to read a very unusual book. It is my genealogy. Hopefully, I’m also saying, it’s your genealogy, too. We might connect way back. You would be surprised because they were big families way back when.

When you think about genealogy, you think about Benjamin Franklin, or you think about the Mayflower, Richard Warren. They had a lot of children. Well, he didn’t, but his grandparents did. You have a lot of children, and those children have children, and those children have children, and it goes on and on and on and on. Reading a book like this, I was very aware of cutting out and not saying too much, knowing when is enough, how much is enough to say that’s going to engage the reader and is going to tell them something without overloading them. It was fine lines, especially when you’re writing nonfiction. I suppose that’s true with fiction. You don’t want to belabor some plots or some storylines. I’m very aware of the reader. That was my goal when I edited.

[00:52:18] Gretchen: What I thought was really remarkable about what you did is you took these letters from disparate sources, and you made a cohesive thread throughout the process that was very compelling.

[00:52:33] Ann: Thank you. I appreciate that. I’m grateful to have received some wonderful reviews, and people feel that way about it. It was interesting. There’s a girl who’s a friend of mine here in town, and she’s a millennial. She’s a young woman with two little children. She read my book. She actually put a review on Amazon, and I was grateful for that. She said, “The more I read, the more I wanted to read because it takes you in. It encompasses you.” I think it does because a little bit of my story represents the history of a lot of people.

That was another person I was talking to recently. I’m 77 years old, and she is too. I talk about history. I talk about the space race. I talk about President Kennedy. I talk about the assassination. I talk about history because I have a connection to the history, to what was happening either through letters or through the people that I talk about in here. She’s like, “That was my life. I did that too, and I saw that too.”

Through the vehicle of genealogy and individual letters, you have this story of American history. People connect to it, and they see themselves. What was interesting about my friend Lauren, who’s young, she said, “This was firsthand account.” She said, “Being a millennial, I wasn’t there, and I didn’t know. You were expressing thoughts and feelings and opinions that, wow, tell me something firsthand about that period of time.”

[00:54:06] Gretchen: One of the things that I found remarkable and that I found compelling was the fact– As somebody who loves espionage novels and mystery novels and action-oriented books, I was as invested and as involved in what you wrote as I am with a John le Carré book. That’s not easy to do. [crosstalk] I’m like, “This is really, really an amazing experience.” I had way too much fun. It was just terrific.

[00:54:47] Ann: I must say thank you because writing a book like this, and you put it out there, and then you wait, and then you wonder, and then you pray. Of course, you’re praying all along, and you hope that it’s going to be meaningful because it’s so different. It’s not an exciting novel. It’s not a big plot. It’s a story. Who is this person, and why do we care? The strength of the book, to me, are the letters and the thoughts and the feelings and the hope and the encouragement that we receive from it.

My friend who was widowed, and she writes amazing letter, her wisdom about how to go forward in life when you’re a widow. I love when she talks about– She joined this group at the hospital, this bereavement group. She joined it, and it’s like– not that she expected to give for herself. She learned from others. The value of the bereavement group was other people’s stories. They helped her understand her own. I thought that was profound because we do things to try to help ourselves. I’m going to do this to make me feel better, or I’m going to do that. No. Other people’s stories make us feel better. Other people’s lives encourage us. We are encouraged by other people’s strength, by their determination to go forward. We’re encouraged by others.

I love that in her letter. I thought somebody reading this book who may be dealing with having lost a spouse, these are some ideas, being every day looking for something positive. I loved her letter. She’s one of my oldest, dearest friends. That’s Jane. I thought her writing was profound. I feel like when people read the book, I give some little things I think are helpful to others. I bring in Scripture throughout to show the continuity of life in Scripture. That’s very valuable. People’s experience with life and how they share that, that’s very valuable. I think what this book becomes– it’s remarkable, not because it’s me. It’s remarkable because it’s you, because it’s the other writers, it’s the authors of these letters. I’m just a vehicle. I’m a vehicle.

[00:57:19] Gretchen: In the interest of full confession, I will tell you that I got to the end of the book, and my regret was that I didn’t have letters to be able to pull from. Now, what I do have is my very organized German father’s diaries. His diaries are not what you and I would conceive of as a diary. They’re not prose. They’re “I measured the height of the bushes in the front yard, they’re 34 centimeters” kind of diaries. It’s a very amusing glimpse into his life.

Where I find it funny is when he’s annoyed, he writes in German. He doesn’t write in English. It’s easy to pick out the days that went well and the days that he was a little bit put off, because if it’s written in English, it was a good day, and if it’s written in German, it was not. [laughs]

[00:58:22] Ann: You felt that out about your father. What you have with your father’s diary is your father’s heart, his feelings, his emotions. I’m grateful I saved these letters. One of the questions was, “How do you encourage children or young people, anybody, to save–”

[00:58:41] Gretchen: I wasn’t going to let you go until you answered that question.

[00:58:45] Ann: Perhaps sharing a book like mine as an inspirational thought. There’s a new book that’s out. Matter of fact, it’s a New York Times bestselling book. I wrote it down. It’s called The Correspondent. Have you heard about that? This woman, her name is Virginia. I have to find the page I wrote it on. Anyway, it’s a New York Times bestseller. It has two little birds on the front of the cover. It’s all about letters. It’s a fiction book. It’s a story, but the vehicle is letters. Reading that, apparently, it’s quite a wonderful book. People who’ve read it, and I’m plugging her because good for her. I’m glad she did that.

Oh, here it is. Virginia Evans, The Correspondent. It’s bestseller, and it’s based on letters. A book like that, a book like mine, helping people and young people, anybody to appreciate history, to understand that when we write a letter, we are writing history. This poem that my granddaughter wrote, she was 14. It was 2024. That’s a little bit of her history, of her life was written. When she wrote that, she expressed herself. If we help maybe get people to understand that letters are historical and valuable and treasured, and words mean something, and we need to treasure them.

[01:00:11] Gretchen: Yes, indeed. In the closing minutes, what would be the takeaway you would like for our audience, something for them to remember going forward about our conversation?

[01:00:26] Ann: I want to read something that my grandmother wrote. “In July 19th, 1967, a month before I got married, I want you to see the power of a grandmother, the power of a mother, the power of an aunt, the power of a friend expressing your heart. Good morning, my darling Ann. Honey, I just know how happy you are anticipating your marriage. God grant all the happiness you are looking forward to. The verses on the card I thought would be good logic for you and Arie to read together. They sounded so true. I do hope your plans will be fulfilled. I’m sure your dad will be a proud father escorting his daughter to her bridegroom, but he will miss you, honey, and so will Mom. Here is a love, a kiss, and a prayer from a doting grandma.” That’s it.

[01:01:17] Gretchen: You’re going to make me cry. [laughs] Ann, I want to thank you for spending this time with me. I want to thank you. You are an extraordinarily busy woman. I am grateful for you taking this hour of time to talk to us. I know that this will inspire not only the people who registered, but those who find this at some later point in time in our podcast, because it’s been an inspiration to me.

I also want to thank our audience for allowing us to come into your living room. We don’t take that responsibility lightly. It’s a pleasure to do this every week, and we’re glad that you join us for the journey. Take care, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today, and we’ll look forward to your joining us again soon