[00:00:00] Katie Wolfe: When it comes to an only child, it’s like, lean into those, I don’t want to say quirks, but whatever they can use for their learning experience that helps them want to learn, do it. If it’s sitting on top of their desk instead of sitting at their desk, as long as they know when they go to Sunday school or whatever, that they know how to sit at a desk when the teacher says, “You need to sit at your desk.” Just leaning into that because why not?

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[00:00:30] Gretchen Roe: Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to The Demme Learning Show. This is Gretchen Roe, and I’m so excited today to welcome my friend and colleague, Katie Wolfe. Katie and I work for opposing math companies, but we are good friends. I have to tell you that our goal in any situation is to make sure that the kids are well-educated. Today, I want to have a very special conversation with Katie. We’re going to talk about raising only children.

I myself was an only child, and I thought it was a really special relationship, but I also wanted to be part of the Brady bunch, so I had them. We’re getting a conversation today about what it’s like to homeschool an only child because it is a different experience. They don’t have to stand in line and wait for your attention. Now I’m going to let Katie introduce herself, and then we’ll get started.

[00:01:23] Katie All right. Thanks, Gretchen. I’m so excited to be here. As Gretchen said, I homeschooled an only child. I started him in pre-K, went all the way to 12th grade, and he just finished his freshman year in college, literally, what, Friday? He finished his last class in college. Went from the very beginning to the very end. Would I change a few things? Yes. Was it absolutely positively the best experience and the best choice to make for him? Absolutely.

It was phenomenal. I won’t say I felt always confident that we’d produce what we did, but our experience was phenomenal, and he turned out to be great. It was a lot of work, but it was a lot of good.

[00:02:08] Gretchen: He’s a pretty special guy. Let’s be real. I think he’s pretty amazing. I can’t call him a kid anymore. He’s a grown-up. This is crazy.

[00:02:19] Katie: I know.

[00:02:21] Gretchen: Let me tell you what kind of a child Katie raised. I’m just going to brag on him for a second.

[00:02:26] Katie: What I was given. I don’t know. Some of it, I’ll take a little credit.

[00:02:30] Gretchen: It’s a little bit of nature and nurture. You sent him to a homeschool conference last year by himself to represent Nicole the Math Lady. He did a marvelous job. I think it’s really important for people to understand the goal of educating any child is to raise them to be independent. That an 18-year-old could go step into that world and greet people and answer questions and be enticing in his own personality says a whole lot about your journey. I think it’s really cool.

[00:03:12] Katie: It’s true. I will say that one of that—and I know I’m really good at going off into a roller coaster—one of the things that really did help with our journey is as I was working for Nicole the Math Lady, and I wanted help traveling to conventions and stuff. He would go with me because, of course, he was homeschooled. He had a flexible schedule. We, Nicole and I, quickly learned having him in the booth was so much more valuable than even me because he was a student. He could talk about the product. It was great for the company.

For him, it was just like the confidence that he got with talking to strangers and not even peers, but all young middle-aged [chuckles] women. We always joke around that he’s really popular with the middle-aged women because he knows how to [chuckles] talk to them. Just the experience that he had and the confidence really helped him grow into part of what he is. Finding those opportunities to plug your kid into places that will give them that. It’s obviously totally thinking outside the box.

He traveled to Cincinnati, Ohio, to the Great Homeschool Convention to work it by himself. That’s not a normal approach, but just finding those places to plug in your kid to grow and to mature and to just shine and get that confidence. He took a public speaking class this year as a freshman and loved every second of it. I would have hated it even today. Even today, I would have been like, “Ooh,” but he rocked that thing.

[00:04:45] Gretchen: There’s something about raising kids amongst a wide variety of ages that makes it an entirely different experience. So often, my friends who public-school their children or choose a more traditional educational experience would say, “Well, what about socialization?” I don’t think that’s a thing. I think we didn’t duct tape them and throw them in our closets.

[00:05:12] Katie: Well, not every day.

[00:05:13] Gretchen: We just took the opportunity to learn on their own.

[00:05:17] Katie: Yes. I will say that is one caution that I give people who are thinking of homeschooling an only. Of course, I didn’t go into this thinking I was going to homeschool and only. I went into it thinking he was just the first one, but he ended up being an only. You don’t need to worry about socialization, but you definitely need to make sure it’s occurring. You can’t just assume it’s going to happen nearly as naturally as it would, of course, if you’ve got six siblings and cousins who live nearby or whatever, a neighborhood with built-in friends right there.

You definitely need to make sure it’s happening. I live in a small town in Hays, Kansas, middle of Kansas. If there’s enough socialization for us here, then you can really find it anywhere. You definitely need to make sure it’s happening. You can’t just assume it’s going to happen naturally.

[00:06:04] Gretchen: I also think the other side of that coin is it’s not just, “Do you get to hang out with other people?” but it’s teaching them how to hang out with other people.

[00:06:15] Katie: Yes, exactly. That’s really good. We didn’t have a co-op when we started homeschooling. After a few years of difference, I started one. Because it’s a smallish town, our co-op was all ages, all together, basically. We were able to take preschoolers into one section or whatever. David, my son, was a seven-year-old, would be paired up with a 15-year-old for some art project. I remember him breaking down one time because she was giving him directions on what to do, and it’s not what he wanted to do.

The teacher who was in charge was like, “Do you want to step in, Katie?” I’m like, “No, [chuckles] I want him to figure it out.” She wasn’t doing anything inappropriate. She was just being a 15-year-old girl, giving her side of it. He needed to find his way to be able to do that. That’s what I love about homeschooling in a co-op situation with kids, is putting him in those situations, but you’re there to observe and to understand, or you’ve got friends who are observing to understand, so that they’re not completely on their own when they come home and they’re upset and you don’t know why or whatever.

Being able to just monitor that from the outskirts a little bit. They do. They need to be able to figure out how to work with other people. Having you guide them is a phenomenal option instead of just throwing them to a classroom to have them figure it out. Again, you have to make sure you’re getting them in those situations because it would be easy, barely, to raise, in homeschool, an only child and come out with a very narrow-minded, selfish, self-absorbed person. Definitely, you find those options.

[00:08:01] Gretchen: Katie, did you all make the decision to homeschool before you began? I’m an inadvertent homeschooler. I didn’t intend to [chuckles] homeschool, but here I was.

[00:08:12] Katie: That’s a good question. I was a public school teacher before I had David. I taught first grade and loved, loved, loved it. Then, as soon as I had him, I was like, “Yes, no more of that. I just want to be at home.” When he got to the preschool age, and my friends, his peers, were sending their kids off to preschool, I was like, “Oh, I don’t want to do that. I like having them around. We’re having so much fun,” especially because that was my whole wheelhouse, just turning everything into a learning opportunity and just reading everything available and whatever.

I kept him home for preschool, and then kindergarten, and then first grade. My husband, who’s a college professor, was like, “Well, let’s take it year by year and see. Obviously, you’re confident doing it at this level, but we’ll see what happens middle school or whatever.” We never looked back. We did evaluate it from time to time. That’s actually how I ended up working for Nicole the Math Lady, because math was what threw me for a loop. There’s times to evaluate things. Didn’t go into it that way, but it’s what we chose to do. I never once contemplated putting him in the classroom.

[00:09:21] Gretchen: Was it a different experience to go from being a classroom teacher to– Some moms tell me that shift is really hard to do.

[00:09:34] Katie: Yes. When we started schooling, I was so excited, as was he, because he’s a little guy and super excited to do anything, really. I literally created our first day with a pocket chart, a schedule, and all this stuff. People say don’t create school at home. I didn’t just create school at home, I created my own classroom exactly how I had it at home. Instead of 30 kids, though, I had 1.

It was a big learning curve for me. One thing, and I also say this is another piece of homeschooling only, is he started off doing things like he wanted to sit on top of his desk to read a book in a robot voice or whatever. I’m like, “Oh, we can’t do that. You need to sit down and read.” Then I’m like, “Why?” I did fear, will he know when he shouldn’t do that? When he’s 12, and he needs to read in a group, will he understand? He did.

It’s like allowing that creativity and that flexibility, which, one, you can’t obviously do in the classroom with 30 kids. You probably necessarily may not be able to do that when you’ve got even three kids, because you’ve got two over there that are trying to do physics, and you’ve got a seven-year-old over here trying to read in a robot voice. That may not work. When it comes to an only child, it’s like, lean into those, I don’t want to say quirks, but whatever they can use for their learning experience that helps them want to learn, do it.

If it’s sitting on top of their desk instead of sitting at their desk, as long as they know when they go to Sunday school or whatever, that they know how to sit at the desk when the teacher says you need to sit at your desk. We don’t want to create rebels, but just leaning into that, because why not? He would do a connect the letter to a picture or whatever. Instead of drawing a straight line, he’d go [babbles] and then do it.

I’m like, “Oh, we can’t do it that way, because I’ll never know what you’re connecting.” Then I’m like, “It’s one kid.” He loved it that way, so why not? Was he able to take the ACT later and fill in the bubbles? Yes, he was.

[00:11:55] Gretchen: That’s so important, Katie, because what you’re doing is you’re giving parents permission. There’s a lot of pressure in homeschooling, but when you’re homeschooling one child, the pressure, I think, is greater.

[00:12:08] Katie: It is, because everything that that child has learned has come solely from you, more or less, in your control of some degree. Not learning it from a sibling, not picking it up from here, picking it from there. It’s all coming from you. It’s by your design. Homeschoolers can have a bad rap. We all understand that about creating an unusual person, or I don’t know what word to use, but somebody who doesn’t fit into society. That’s a whole different conversation.

Only children in themselves can struggle in that, whether they’re homeschooled or not. Gretchen, you would probably attest to that. Having this only child who’s only homeschooled with only one person, there is definitely a lot to maneuver. Really not to maneuver, just to plan ahead and to be aware of. Yes, there’s a lot of pressure to produce something great. I have lots of friends with six, seven, eight kids, and they’re like, “That’s got to be easy, Katie.” I’m like, “Yes, except I’m the only one there to play the games.” It’s a 24/7 thing when you’ve got one person. There’s pros and cons, obviously.

[00:13:27] Gretchen: As he grew academically, did you follow him?

[00:13:31] Katie: When we started, I was so worried about socialization that I took every opportunity that came my way for us to socialize. I was confident in the early years of I knew I would get the academics done because it was so natural to me, the reading and the writing, and the beginning math and stuff. We socialized so much, everything that came up. If it didn’t come up, I created it. It wasn’t just wasted socialization. It was lots of fun field trips and classroom parties, just all that kind of stuff.

As we got older, I was like, “Whoa, I think we need to step back from socialization because we’ve got middle school. More academics need to focus on things that are now outside of my comfort zone that either I need to figure out, spend more time on myself, or outsource, need to take those academics, spend more direct time on that. Then I made the mistake of cutting off too much socialization. That balance is hard. Yes, in terms of what he was interested in, obviously, there were things he had to learn.

When it came to any way that we could lean into his interest, we did, which was all animals. Animals from the beginning of time, all the way until today. He wants to go into vet school. He got to choose the vast majority of books that he read. They were animals, nonfiction, whatever, whatever. When he was old enough to volunteer in town, he volunteered at this museum that has behind-the-scenes animal encounters. Stuff like that.

We could pour so much into his interests because, A, we had the time. You can also start all of this science. We spent extra money on science courses because that’s what he wanted to go into. We spent extra money on live science classes so that I was making sure that he was getting exactly what he needed for that. We put a lot into his interest. Obviously, also making sure that he could do all the other things that he needed to do, which is so easy with one. Much easier with one than six.

[00:15:49] Gretchen: I’m so impressed that you created a co-op. In that co-op experience, tell me a little bit about how you were able to balance your time because when you have an only child, there’s that expectation that you will be there for all the things. How did you make running a co-op work?

[00:16:10] Katie: It was smallish. I was a teacher by training, so I wanted to teach classes for co-op and stuff. I was busy, but that part wasn’t hard. It got harder as he got older, and I wanted to focus more on academic. Co-op classes, the ones that we would do, they would be supplemental to science. We weren’t learning all of physics. We were learning a piece of physics throughout the semester or whatever.

As we got more towards middle school and high school, or really just middle school, when we got there, I was like, “Ooh, I feel like we need to take the time that I would have put into that or we would have put into that to a much more serious course.” Some of the co-op pushed back a little bit. They’re like, “Oh, but we need you to teach our kids this.” I’m like, “Yes, no. Others are coming up.” I would say that is something also that happened to me a lot, co-op or not, is that I have friends. I love friends. I love having friends. I love my son having friends. I’m a very social person in that sense. I love to help.

Was I always the go-to person if the mom of six needed a babysitter? Yes. You know what I mean? It’s like you do need to learn to say no to protect your time because your responsibility literally is your one student. It is not the six of that mom over there. Help them as much as you can, whatever, but your responsibility is that one that’s in front of you. Believe it or not, there’s a time limit on how much you actually have them at home. There is. Mine’s gone. It goes away.

[00:17:58] Gretchen: Katie, we had so many wonderful questions. I just have to ask you this one. A six-year-old who needs to be challenged to stay focused, how did you measure, “Okay, I’m challenging you, but I’m not pushing you to the edge”?

[00:18:16] Katie: Yes, that’s a good question because, again, when you’ve got one, you can focus so much on that one, so it would be easy to push too hard because you’re like, “Oh, I’ve got all the time and energy. We can have a rocket scientist at eight.” If you take time understanding what your six-year-old needs, I would really just say looking at progress, just continuing to progress in each of those subjects, whatever it may be.

I made the ridiculous mistake, and this would be one of my things I would love to redo as a homeschool mom. I literally have a master’s in education, and I made this mistake. My kid, David, he could read between three and four. Did I teach it to him? No. It’s just the natural thing. He picked things up, wanted to read from the very beginning. Did I lean into it? Yes, but it was mostly just his own intuition, whatever.

I made the brilliant decision that if he could do that, he could do everything at four years old. We were trying to write. We were trying to do math. We were trying to do whatever. When it came to writing for him, it was excruciating. I was like, “But why? You can read these things. You should be able to write these things.” Of course, I know that’s not the case. Also, he had a four-year-old hand. Things like that, lean into their interest, but also their skills.

Yes, if you’ve got a strong reader, push. Don’t shove, but push them along because they can be reading at a fifth-grade level and writing at a kindergarten level or whatever it is, which is true for any homeschool or any student anywhere. With an only child, definitely watch out for that because I really thought, “Oh, we’re going to be graduating from high school when we’re eight. Yes, watch out for them being behind in things. That’s also a whole other discussion. I’m sure Gretchen’s had a lot of episodes on that.

[00:20:13] Gretchen: You had an interesting take on this yesterday. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[00:20:17] Katie: I say this mostly when it comes to working for Nicole the Math Lady. I’m not one who says there’s no behind in homeschool. People tend to say that, but I don’t believe that’s the case. Now, do I think that you’re behind if you can’t read when you’re 8? No, not at all. There’s a lot of things. It needs the time, it needs the opportunity, whatever that child needs. If they’re, I don’t know, 15 and they don’t know their times tables, they’re behind. They can get caught up easily on that. It’s like if they’re struggling in something, you’re trying to graduate them, and they don’t know how to– I don’t know, I can’t name an example.

[00:20:59] Gretchen: The conversation we were having yesterday was a child who is 16 years old and hasn’t taken high school mathematics yet.

[00:21:07] Katie: Yes, that’s a problem. That is a problem. There’s definitely a point where they’re behind. Obviously, look at what it is that they want to get out of life. I had a huge moment when I was planning his middle school and high school. Again, this is how I ended up with Nicole the Math Lady, was because I could not find the right math program for him. I kept switching math. Don’t do that. Gretchen and I will tell you not to do that.

I kept switching math programs around. Again, probably part of that was because he was an only child. I was hyper-focused. I was, “Oh, this one would be good for him. This one would be good for him.” I wasn’t making him do it. Do you know what I mean? I was allowing him to drive the train, although he wasn’t trying to. Does that makes sense? By the time he was in middle school, and I sat down to– He was in the middle of middle school, and I could see I had five years left of his education. I thought, “Oh my word, this boy wants to go into science. If we don’t figure this out now, we are in trouble. He is behind in math. If he wants to do this, we have got to do this.”

That was a really big moment for me in realizing there is a behind. If you have got this goal, I only have five years to get him there. It’s his goal, not mine. Five years to get him there. He needed to get there. Obviously, again, listen to them and watch what they can do and why they are pushing back on something. My son would push back on writing, not because he didn’t have the thoughts, but because it hurt his hand. Things like that. Just look for progress. Again, push, but don’t shove. Find their interests because, again, with an only child, if you can make everything about how to train your dragon for a month, do it.

[00:23:04] Gretchen: I’m imagining your house is overflowing with animals. Is that true?

[00:23:08] Katie: Yes. Real ones and stuffed ones.

[00:23:14] Gretchen: [laughs] Yes, well, this is how we ended up with pet rats in the family. I had a similar situation. I still have the rats here in my office, but you chase their interests a little bit.

[00:23:28] Katie: Yes, absolutely. We had a conversation this weekend about he has a bearded dragon that we have downstairs. I was like, “You can’t have it in the dorm. Do you think we should rehome it?” He’s like, “Oh, no, it’s much better off on you.”

[00:23:43] Gretchen: I had a list of, “I am not doing these things.” [laughs] A bearded dragon might have been on that list.

[00:23:52] Katie: No, he loves to snuggle. He’s so cool. There’s no snakes, though.

[00:24:00] Gretchen: I thought this was a really interesting question. How do you find time for you?

[00:24:05] Katie: I’ll be honest, I was never very good at that. I’m certainly not good at that now. One of the things that turned out to be an amazing situation for us is that my best friend that I met through our co-op has an only child, a boy. She didn’t homeschool him at first, but she started when he was like third grade. That’s when we met her and stuff. David and Raleigh are still, to this day, best of friends. Best of friends. They are opposites in so many ways, but they are best of friends.

Him having a close friend was so important. Also, he learned a lot of things from Raleigh that we were never going to teach him. We’re always very, very grateful for things that Raleigh taught him. Seriously, I’m not kidding. Things that peers can share. With my best friend, because she also understood the exact scenario of all the time goes to your kid. We were very good about swapping play dates and whatever so that you got free time.

I’m not very good at that. You definitely need to be. If I could go back, I would probably set up different, more of a pattern, like trying to have some kind of structured, like this is my time, you go do that. We did some of that, like go read on your own. Then, of course, instead of me doing something relaxing, I was, I don’t know, cooking dinner or–

[00:25:37] Gretchen: You were probably planning the next thing you were going to do together. This question I thought was really interesting. What happened when he became a teenager and his opinions started to differ from yours, whether it be academic or social? How did you handle that?

[00:25:57] Katie: I will say I think David’s a little unusual. He’s always just been a very, very, very good kid. Didn’t argue, didn’t push back a lot. At some point, he started to push back on his father, more, I think, just the man stuff. We just had this big discussion yesterday about something, a very big topic. He’s like, “Well, in college, I’ve learned, I met somebody who said this,” or “I learned this,” or whatever. He’s like, “So I’m rethinking this.”

I’m like, “Well, that’s interesting.” We did try to present a variety of views. He knew what we thought on all these topics, or what his father thought on all these topics, and what the book said on all these topics. We really did try to present a variety. When he was younger, I was much more about, “This is what the answer is for this, this, and this.” He didn’t push back then. Now, if I was to do that, he would definitely push back because he’s forming his own opinions. He does it very respectfully, but also I’ve learned a tremendous amount from him because he’s always been open to other people and to other people’s opinions.

For a long time, obviously, it was just me giving him everything. Then I started outsourcing to different teachers, and classes, and whatever. He’s always been very open, and very open with his peers, and just people that he encounters anywhere on their views and opinions. Not influence, just open to what they’re having to say. He then takes that and forms his own opinion. He’s been like that for years. He does it very respectfully when he wants to discuss something that you may not agree with. I love it. That’s what we wanted to produce.

[00:27:41] Gretchen: He didn’t go to college in Hays either.

[00:27:44] Katie: No.

[00:27:46] Gretchen: How did that situation unfold?

[00:27:50] Katie: He has a very clear idea of what he wanted to do. There were six schools that he wanted to consider, like the six top schools in this field. He applied to them all, got into all of them, which I will say, we expected him to get into four of them. The other two, we were like, “I don’t know if that’s going to work,” but it did. It was great. Then started visiting them. He chose the University of Montana, which is not close, but it’s a perfect fit for him. Was it hard when he went? Yes.

My friends laugh at me because this is what I wanted to make, was this independent person who could go off and do his own things. That’s what I did. That hurts. [laughs] He literally drove himself to college. Didn’t want us to take him. He literally left 10 days early and did a tour of zoos and national parks along the way. Packed up his car, and he’s like, “Bye.”

[00:28:44] Gretchen: You’re still here. I do remember that was hard last summer, but you’re still here.

[00:28:50] Katie: He came up and surprised me for Mother’s Day. I was visiting my mom. He lives three hours from where she is. I got to see him. He’s absolutely thriving. People ask me, “Well, how are you doing?” I’m like, “I’m doing great because he’s thriving.” It wasn’t easy that those first few weeks and months of quietness and all that. I travel for work a lot. I also feel like out there it’s different. I can stop in and see him, too, on my travels.

[00:29:27] Gretchen: How has this year been now that he’s gone, the transition for you? You don’t have obligations on the daily. I suspect that that would have to be hard because it’s got to be a huge parenting shift.

[00:29:44] Katie: It is, but I will say, and he’s very quick to remind me on this as well, that by the time he was a sophomore, junior, I wasn’t doing a lot of the teaching anymore. I was in charge of making sure he was getting what he needed. We definitely outsourced things. He did Nicole the Math Lady for math, so I knew what he was doing. Then he started doing dual enrollment classes and stuff. I think that was actually a really– Now that I look back on it, I’m like, “That was a really good segue into it, gently.” You know what I mean? That was a huge piece of it.

Plus, by his senior year, he was doing dual enrollment classes. He was traveling an hour and a half almost every day to the zoo, where he was– I’m saying zoo. It is a zoo. A zoo that’s an hour and a half away, but he volunteered that and stuff like that. I wasn’t doing a lot for him by then in terms of daily school. It was definitely a change. He also FaceTimes a lot. That’s fabulous. I feel like I get to see him.

[00:30:49] Gretchen: That’s pretty awesome. In the process of his growing up, did it feel like things went too quickly?

[00:30:58] Katie: [laughs] Yes. I think everyone says that, though, don’t they? I don’t know where the time went. I was just texting my best friend, who her son is in the same boat, and he’s getting an apartment for the summer. My son’s not coming home for the summer at all. He has no interest in coming home for the summer. I know, right? He even came home for Christmas, and he was like, “Why is Christmas break so long?”

[00:31:24] Gretchen: How do you not take that personally?

[00:31:27] Katie: First of all, because I don’t doubt at all that he loves me immensely, and he misses his family, and he misses his dog a lot, but he’s so excited about what’s ahead of him, so excited, and he wants to just get out there and do it, including making mistakes. His roommate this year, his roommate, his mom would call him, I don’t know if it was every day, but almost every day, to wake him up so he was in time for classes. David’s like, “Mom, if you even think about doing that,” and I’m like, “What if you miss a class?” He’s like, “I’ll miss it. It is what it is.”

I don’t know. I take it personally, no. I actually take it as a– I don’t want to say a compliment because it’s not like I made it happen, but it’s, I guess, proof that all the time, effort, and energy that went into it has resulted in what we wanted it to be. Did we want him living in our basement at 30? No.

[00:32:33] Gretchen: Right. No, you don’t need to sit on the sofa and eat Cheetos. Yes, absolutely. No, I think that does make a difference. I want you to think back now. You had 18 years with him. Where were the tough transitions? Where did you have to renegotiate your thought process?

[00:32:57] Katie: That’s a good question. Middle school. I’m sure that’s not a surprise to anybody. Definitely middle school.

[00:33:05] Gretchen: Was that you expecting, or was that him behaving differently than you anticipated?

[00:33:14] Katie: No, again, he didn’t misbehave. It wasn’t that. It was social stuff. I wanted him to keep doing certain social things so that he was not becoming a hermit, but he didn’t necessarily love the youth group anymore. He just said yesterday, he’s like, “I was afraid of girls.” We just had an awkward time. He literally could not handle being around girls unless he had Wally by his side. It was like there was just some awkward pre-teen, early teen years, which are obviously totally normal.

That was a hard part only in the sense that I knew letting him not do any of that social stuff was not the answer because he needed to. Knowing what that balance was, was a little bit of a struggle. The funny thing is, I don’t know, two months ago or something, he said, “I think I came to the realization that I probably should have done more when I was in middle school and high school social life.” He’s like, “But I didn’t want to.” I’m like, “I know.” He’s like, “I think you should have made me.”

He recognizes that probably more of that would have helped him have more confidence. The one thing in college so far that he has not struggled with, but tried to find the balance with, again, I think everybody does this every day, I do, is figuring out how much energy to put into school versus social. That’s struggling, and he has struggled just throughout the years finding that balance. Again, he was like, “Oh my gosh, look at all these great people and fun things to do.”

Obviously, college, there’s a bazillion options. He’s signing up for every club and every group. He’s going skiing one week and then kayaking the next. It’s finding that balance because he also wanted to do really well in school, and he takes his schooling very seriously. That was a struggle. I don’t know if I would have done anything different in that situation, and I don’t think that there was anything unusual about it when he hit those middle school years, but obviously, if he’d been in school, that would have been forced on him. Maybe we should have pushed him some more, but I don’t know.

[00:35:49] Gretchen: You know what? You’re playing the long game.

[00:35:52] Katie: Yes, totally.

[00:35:53] Gretchen: You don’t always know what is going to work. I remember saying to my youngest, who is, like David, very outgoing, very willing to talk to people he doesn’t know. He could probably sell ice cubes to an Eskimo. I said to him, “When you hit middle school, you’re going to wake up one day, and you’re going to think I’m a pain in your neck. When it happens, I don’t want you to feel guilty because it’s part of growing up.”

We were on a trip after his graduation, and he was looking down. We’re actually standing looking at Mesa Verde in Colorado. We’re looking across the canyon at the mesa. He’s looking down on the ground, and I said, “What are you thinking?” He said, “I’m just thinking, you know what? I never decided you were a pain in my neck.” [laughs]

[00:36:49] Katie: I think a lot of that is the personality. It’s the relationship. He makes fun of me and teases me about things now that I not embarrass him about or whatever. The relationship we have is so amazing that, yes, we tease each other back and forth on things like that. I will continue to be the person, so far, of who he comes to and tells things to and asks things of. I will say the day that he out-grew me, and you’re looking up at a 12-year-old, but that’s true for having kids in general. I don’t know. It is hard to look at this 6-foot. He’s 6’2″ with a full beard and stuff, and I’m like, “You’re just my boy.”

[laughter]

[00:37:42] Gretchen: Yes, it is hard. It’s hard to watch them grow and change, and it’s exciting, but it’s a little bittersweet, too. Now, for me, with my youngest, because he was so many years younger, it was like having an only. He was my buddy. We paled around together. We did things together. When he reached the age of driving and heading to the bar and, “See you, Mom,” that was hard for me. How was that for you?

[00:38:18] Katie: For me, it was mostly actually work-related. He literally would go on all my Nicole the Math Lady trips with me, which took up a ton of my time. We had so much fun doing it. Everywhere we went, we went to the zoo, and we just made so much fun of it. He carried all the heavy things, so it was fabulous. Absolutely loved it. Got to see places I’ve never seen. Same thing. When he got to the point, he was like, “Oh, really? I don’t–” Not that he had to go before, but he’s like, “Oh.”

He loved making the money. Don’t get me wrong. He loved doing it. Then he was like, “Oh, well, I have this, or I could do this. I think I’m going to do this instead.” I’m like, “Okay.” That definitely was a shift, not just because I was like– He had a girlfriend his last year in high school and wanted to go do things over there with other people. I’m schlepping my own bags. No, I’m kidding. It definitely was a piece.

I will never forget the first zoo I went to with one of my coworkers, like Gretchen would be a coworker, on a convention. I was at a zoo. We were in the gift shop, and I started crying because David had never been not to the zoo with me. She’s like, “What is wrong with you?” [laughs] Life has changed. Yes, it’s hard, especially because you get to make these bonds and these traditions and stuff that are so tight, especially when you have one or just one left at home, and you’re homeschooling them. Again, it’s that goal. It’s that goal that you have, or that they have, but what you have for them is to be able to go out there and make their own decisions and thrive.

[00:39:57] Gretchen: Did you ever have a period of time where he was struggling? I know a lot of kids hit middle school and they’re trying to figure out who they are in relation to the world. There can be frustration, there can be depression, there can be anxiety. How did you manage through that?

[00:40:21] Katie: There was a little bit of that for him, but actually more of that came just as freshman year in college. Even in middle school, when he was struggling with that a little bit, just sitting in with the kids at youth group or baseball or whatever, not being the best at baseball, trying to find your– that kind of thing. There was a little bit of that, but I was there to help with it, and he would talk to me and stuff. It also wasn’t a huge variety of people that were there. Do you know what I mean?

It was in this freshman year where he’s had a little bit of that. He has a big group of friends that he has, that he’s in the honors college. He has this group of friends that came out of that, a big cohort, and they’re super close, and they do tons of things together. He’s like, “Everybody likes me, and I hang out with everybody, and I like all of them, but I don’t have one close friend, and people are starting to break off into– or they have a girlfriend,” or whatever.

He’s like, “It’s not that I– People like me, I get that, but it’s trying to find that and to have the confidence of maybe he’s not going to find that this year or whatever.” It’s been then. Actually, at college, on his own, he went and found a counselor on the campus. I think it was something that was promoted to him as freshman or whatever. It’s like $20 a week, and he loves to talk to her. She’s given him some insight on things that’s really helped him that I couldn’t have provided or whatever.

It’s like just being aware and being open to talking about those things and listening, because now it’s more about me listening unless he wants me to give advice. It’s more about listening and not saying, “Well, when I was in college, this is the way it was,” because that doesn’t help. It’s his experience also. [crosstalk]

[00:42:28] Gretchen: College, when you and I were in college, is profoundly different than it is today.

[00:42:32] Katie: Exactly. I went to a small private school. He’s going to a big, giant state school. Totally different situations. He’s a different person. That, just being aware, because I was definitely a little worried when there’s one weekend and he didn’t call me at all, or I couldn’t– he wasn’t doing anything. I’m like, “Are you hibernating in your room?” I would say that happened more his freshman year in high school than it did in college.

[00:42:59] Gretchen: How do you balance the independence with the mom stalker tendencies, I guess is what I’m going to say?

[00:43:09] Katie: That is a good question.

[00:43:13] Gretchen: I laugh because my 27-year-old, I still have access to his bank account. I said to him, “Don’t you want me to get the heck out of your money?” He goes, “Oh, no, I need somebody to make sure that…accountable.”

[00:43:29] Katie: Right now, the whole family, my husband, me, and him all share our location and stuff like that. That was David’s idea. He did that before he left for college for all of us. I don’t know. Part of it is him, knowing that he will say when he needs help, but also being more aware of stuff. When they go off to college, you don’t get to check their grades. You don’t get to check their health record. It’s all. Work yourself up to that. Whether it’s college or they’re going off to do anything, it’s unusual if your kid wants you in a bank account. That stuff all expires when they turn 18. It expires.

[00:44:17] Gretchen: It does. To be fair, Duncan wanted me to be in his bank account because he hiked the Continental Divide Trail last year. He couldn’t even access the internet most of the summer. “Yes, Mom, move money from my savings account to my checking account because I’m about to go buy another pair of hiking shoes.”

[00:44:38] Katie: “I’m not going to be around.” Yes. That part has been a little bit hard. I’ve done much better than my husband has with it, I’ll say.

[00:44:47] Gretchen: Really? Now, here’s my own supposition. I would think it would be harder for you than it would be for your husband.

[00:44:59] Katie: Because I was so close with David in the-

[00:45:01] Gretchen: Right.

[00:45:02] Katie: -day-to-day stuff? I think the difference is I’m still much closer with David, so he calls me with everything and whatever. Whereas my husband, he talks to David a lot too, but he’s not the one that gets the phone calls constantly or the FaceTimes constantly to know what’s going on. He does more looks at his class schedule and is like, “Ooh, I’m not sure that–” or whatever. He’s doing it from more of a—not outsider because I’m not that—but from a different perspective.

[00:45:37] Gretchen: Right. Maybe he’s just getting the end of the story instead of all the thinking in the middle of it.

[00:45:43] Katie: Also, the fact that he’s, I think, male-to-male. My husband, college professor, is like, “Well, that’s not the way I would do it.” There’s that piece of it. Whereas I’m not. There’s definitely a balance. I’ve had to pull myself back from saying things like– He almost missed a deadline of getting a scholarship renewed. I was like, “Dude, that’s where I draw the line.” He got some really good scholarships. I’m like, “Yes, that doesn’t just cost you, it costs us.” I hope you remember.

[00:46:21] Gretchen: In that process, when he was a teenager, did you let him find his own scholarship opportunities? How deeply were you involved in that process?

[00:46:33] Katie: That is a good question. I really don’t have a lot I can share on that because it was just, everywhere he applied, which was all out-of-state, by the way. I knew out-of-state tuition was the thing. I just didn’t really know how much of a meaning of this. Everything was out-of-state. Most–

[00:46:56] Gretchen: Did you go and visit those schools?

[00:46:58] Katie: Yes. We didn’t go visit all of them because he fell in love with the third one we went to. Two of them were actually in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, which is where– he doesn’t remember living there, but we used to live there. Those were very comfortable. That’s actually one of the ones my husband taught at before we moved to Kansas. We were very familiar with those. When he applied to all of them, almost all of them gave him an automatic academic thing based on scores and your transcript.

Then, other things, he didn’t do anything unusual. It was just, as he was applying, it was like, “Do you want to apply for the honors college? Yes. Do you want to apply for this honors scholarship? Sure.” Then he actually got the second-highest one of that. I have no advice on seeking out scholarships at all other than make sure that you’re looking for them as they come, doing as they come up.

Then he got random scholarship this year, in the middle of the year. We’ve been very blessed in that sense. He’s doing great, but it’s not like– I don’t know how, yes. They’re throwing money at him. No, they’re not.

[00:48:21] Gretchen: That had to be hard when all the schools he was looking at were out-of-state, too. I would assume that there was financial incentive for him to go to college in Hays, but they didn’t offer what he wanted.

[00:48:40] Katie: No. That was considered for probably 10 seconds because he did not– Again, my husband, because he’s in the field, truly believes, obviously, not that there’s only one place you can go to get the education you want, but that there’s definitely better places you can go to get what you want out of it. Was totally behind the idea of, find the program that you want, and if you get into it, we’ll try to find and make it work. I will say he’s also going to be an RA next year. His room and board is totally getting taken care of, so that’s a blessing.

[00:49:23] Gretchen: Now, if he qualified to become an RA, that proves that he is mature beyond his years because they don’t lightly choose RA to do that.

[00:49:33] Katie: Yes. I would say the one thing that he’s learned this year that took me back a little bit when he verbalized it, but it’s true, is I realize, and his therapist helped him figure this out, but it’s totally true, it’s like, “Once I hit middle school and high school, it’s like, I didn’t get to just be a goofy kid.”

He’s like, “Everything I did,” and I guess this is a warning to people, “Everything I did outside of academics, I was doing in a responsible format. I was volunteering for something. Then, after the first year volunteering there, I was in charge of the new volunteers.” He would present. He did animal presentations at zoos and stuff. It was educating. It was never just goofing off and being a dumb 14-year-old. It was like school. It’s like that stuff. He has struggled. Not that we want him doing that, but it’s like, “That piece I don’t know how to do when I’m in a group because I have…” and so I’m like, “That makes sense.”

[00:50:48] Gretchen: He’s a little mature beyond his years.

[00:50:51] Katie: It’s true. Which is, on the surface, it doesn’t sound like a bad thing. It’s also, he’s like, “When I’m in a group, and someone cracks a joke, A, if I don’t get it,” which all the time he doesn’t because he’s had to learn things like that. It’s that piece. He’s like, he doesn’t know how to naturally be in just kind of a free-flowing group.

[00:51:13] Gretchen: I can totally relate to that. I had the same challenges. Even though I went to public school, all of my social engagements, all of my summers, all of my winter breaks and everything were just with adults. There’s an expectation of how you respond and how you behave. Then I would get with a group of peers. I remember, at his age, thinking, “You all are so immature.” [laughs]

[00:51:53] Katie: It’s funny because who thought that would be a problem? Thankfully, being in the honors college, everyone is aligned academically. They all want to do well so that they’re not wasting time, energy, and brain cells on crazy stuff. He’s just that natural; they have movie nights together in the dorm and whatever. It took him a while to figure out, and it does sound stupid, but how to sit, which circles back to he used to sit on top of his desk when he read a book. Maybe that’s–

[laughter]

[00:52:31] Gretchen: Did you remind him of that?

[00:52:34] Katie: No. It’s more like relaxing in a group, I think, is the thing. It’s just this relaxation because a lot of his social stuff was a responsibility that he wanted. It wasn’t that he didn’t want to do those things instead of just relaxing. I think that’s basically what it is.

[00:52:53] Gretchen: Katie, I can’t believe we’re almost at the top of the hour. This has been such a fascinating conversation. If you had three pieces of advice to offer a mom of an only in the homeschooling journey, what would those three pieces of advice be?

[00:53:09] Katie: Things I’ve said already, but I will hit them. Definitely be aware of socialization and find that balance. Obviously, I just made very clear it’s not as easy as I thought it was. Just be aware of it. Don’t be afraid to homeschool an only because the resources out there now are so vast. Enjoy it. Lean into the interests because, as a public school teacher, if I could have done that for every single one of my kids, they would all have been reading off the charts because they were interested in what was being presented to them or whatever it was. Just lean into those interests that your kids have and have fun. Just enjoy it. I loved it. Absolutely loved it. Enjoy it. Enjoy the process.

[00:53:57] Gretchen: It does seem like it went too quickly, doesn’t it?

[00:54:00] Katie: On that note, I hope that he marries somebody that wants to have a Brady Bunch like you because I want lots of babies.

[00:54:09] Gretchen: It’s really funny because, until my mid-20s, I did not want children at all. I had no intention of having children. I’m really glad God knew my heart better than I did. That’s a whole different thing. Last question. How did you decide? Nicole is such a wonderful help to families, particularly those of us who don’t appreciate teaching math. I think math is spelled with four letters for a reason. I know I’m a math company.

[00:54:40] Katie: Yes, me too, which is so funny because nobody understands that when we’re at conventions. We don’t love math.

[00:54:46] Gretchen: No. This is why we do what we do.

[00:54:49] Katie: That’s why I’m sitting here is because I don’t love the math. [laughs]

[00:54:52] Gretchen: How did you find your way to Nicole? Did you do a bunch of research?

[00:54:56] Katie: I didn’t. I found my way to Nicole to use for David. We started using her videos. It was like, “Oh, well, now we can do this.” By the way, he got a 97% calculus this semester. She turned him around for math. Got him all caught. It’s phenomenal. After using her for a year, she reached out to me. It was 2020. Her business blew up, as you can imagine. Just asked if I wanted to help answer emails because she was too busy to answer emails.

I was like, “I’ll do anything,” because I love her so much. I didn’t know the woman. She was a prerecorded video in my living room every day for a year. I just loved her energy and just how much she helped us. Now I work full-time or more than full-time and travel the country. I absolutely love what we offer. I love my coworkers. It’s so fun to go to conventions and hang out with people that you haven’t seen for a while.

[00:55:57] Gretchen: I think you do a tremendous job. It’s a big privilege at Demme Learning to know Nicole the Math Lady and Mr. D. We know that not every key fits every lock. To be able to collaborate with each other to find the best fit so that a child can be successful is just phenomenal.

[00:56:22] Katie: If there was one math program that fit every kid, school would not be what it is right now. We could all start using the same math, and everyone would do well. Absolutely positively. I spend more time working for Nicole the Math Lady, talking about other math programs, I’m pretty sure, than I do. Absolutely positively. Find the right one that works.

[00:56:44] Gretchen: Well, Katie, I want to say thank you for spending this time with me. We’ve gotten to know each other on the conference circuit. When we were talking about homeschool experiences, of course, this started because I was just so impressed with David. I thought he was amazing. Then I started getting nosy. Here we are today. Thank you so much for spending time with me. I am grateful indeed for the conversation. I know this is going to bless some parents, especially those parents who might be sitting on the fence, going, “Maybe I shouldn’t do this because my child is an only child.”

[00:57:19] Katie: Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun.

[00:57:21] Gretchen: Thank you all for joining us this afternoon. I appreciate it profoundly that you are willing to allow us into your living rooms. We don’t take that lightly. It’s a very special privilege to bring you these stories and these conversations because I think it enriches your journey. Thanks for joining us today, everyone. I really appreciate knowing you.