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[00:00:05] Gretchen Roe: Good afternoon, everyone. This is Gretchen Roe for The Demme Learning Show and I am so excited to welcome Angie Wakeman to talk to me today about hybrid learning.

[00:00:14] Angie Wakeman: Hi. Thanks, Gretchen. My name is Angie Wakeman. I live in Pennsylvania. I have a husband named Chad and I have three daughters. I was a high school English teacher. I went to public school and I taught in a public school and just expected that was the trajectory we would go on as a family. Then just one thing after the next, I started pointing my heart more toward homeschooling, which I consider doing with some fear and trembling. Fast forward seven years later, I’m working at a hybrid– we call it an academy. It’s really a supplement for homeschool families.

[00:00:52] Gretchen: What changed your mind from a public school persona to a homeschool persona? Sometimes I want parents to be able to fit themselves into, “Oh yes, that happened to me,” or, “Oh, I hadn’t considered that.”

[00:01:09] Angie: It was probably a couple of things. One of them is that my oldest daughter was in a play-based preschool. That was, I think, more instrumental than I sometimes remember because I thought before you go to kindergarten, you go to preschool. It was probably providential that she ended up at this play-based preschool. I liked the way that I saw her learning and that it engaged her curiosity and that they were using an educational model that says children do learn through play.

There were a couple of families who were like, “Well, the preschool’s great, but we actually have to go home and get them ready for real school,” which felt really problematic to me. I liked what I was seeing there. Then our local school district, the year that my daughter was turning five, went from half-day kindergarten to full-day kindergarten. I just got the sense that it was a lot of test prep and a lot of rigor is what they were really pushing for. My sense was that it was coming at the expense of their childhood.

That was issue number two. Then my co-founder, Rebecca, and I both had our daughters in our preschool together. We went to church together and we would always have conversations about education. She was far more homeschool-prepared than I was. She was like that. Then I knew several other friends from our church also who were thinking about homeschooling. For me, I think knowing other people who homeschooled gave me permission to say, “Well, if so-and-so is doing it, I guess I can do it.”

Then I guess just to say the fourth thing, my husband was homeschooled up through eighth grade. He would often say, “You’re a teacher. You should homeschool.” I’m like, “I’m a teacher. I shouldn’t homeschool you.” Really, it was like this series of things that just got my attention. Then I think the final thing for me was there was somebody at the preschool who was talking about a Waldorf charter school that was in our area and I was like, “What’s Waldorf?”

I went home and I looked it up and I was like, “Oh, I like this approach to education that’s more holistic and that honors childhood.” That was, I think, another thing for me was getting an educational philosophy that I really agreed with. I think it wasn’t really a leap into just homeschooling. It was like, “I could homeschool if I had help.” My co-founder and I started our program, Providence Hybrid Academy, the year that my daughter was going into kindergarten.

[00:03:49] Gretchen: You started right from the very beginning with this idea. Tell us a little bit about how Providence Hybrid Academy functions because I think it will help parents understand. You said you felt you could homeschool if you had help. What does that help look like?

[00:04:06] Angie: Yes. In our model, we’re an educational nonprofit. We are legally a supplement for homeschoolers. We’re not legally a school. On paper, we’re a little bit more like a co-op as far as we’re serving homeschoolers. We have teachers and they’re employees of our organization. Parents get to drop their students off for two days a week of classes. We always felt like you’re meeting people in the middle. You’re not homeschooling entirely by yourself. You’re not five long days of traditional school. It’s a little bit of both. We felt like it was the best of both worlds as far as that goes.

We decided, because students were going to be with us for two days a week, that we wanted to cover reading and math. We do offer reading and math classes as well as a pretty wide range of subjects. We follow Charlotte Mason’s methodology. We’ve used a lot of, as much as we can in two days a week, fit-in classes that are aligned with her philosophy. We have artist and composer study from kindergarten on up. We have nature study from kindergarten through sixth grade and then we do history and geography as well. We provide booklets for families that they can use.

Our teachers post in Google Classroom every week what they covered and make suggestions for what families can do at home. I think the support comes through, not having to be alone, being part of a community, and then having somebody else’s voice speaking into your child’s life, as well as that– I’ll say academic accountability. That might not be a great word, but just the academic support, and then also somebody else who is witness to your child, and like, “Is it just me that there was this math curriculum,” or is it like, “Do we need to spend less time on handwriting?” You have another voice to say, “Well, this is what I see as well.” We provide support in that capacity.

[00:06:02] Gretchen: Sure. That makes a lot of sense. In fact, we’re doing an episode next week entitled, Is It the Kid, the Curriculum, or Me? Sometimes we’re good at self-doubt. We wanted to break that apart for parents so that they can do a little bit of diagnostics to figure out where the pushback or the challenges are arising. You’re meeting all those challenges with parents really coming alongside them. What ages do you serve?

[00:06:33] Angie: We serve kindergarten through– we’re opening up 11th grade next year. We’ve added a grade level every year, more or less. There were a couple of years that we did a combined four through six and that was a new thing. Yes, almost a full K-12 program.

[00:06:49] Gretchen: My goodness. Well, for somebody who wasn’t sure you could homeschool alone, you really have bitten off a lot. What’s probably the most valuable lesson you’ve learned in this process?

[00:07:01] Angie: Ooh, as a homeschooler or as an employee?

[00:07:09] Gretchen: I’m going to ask it in two different directions. Let me ask it first as a personal aside, what’s the most valuable thing you’ve learned in this process? You’re not just serving your children. You’re serving a bunch of kids.

[00:07:25] Angie: [laughs] I think probably the most valuable thing I’m learning is to let go of control. [laughs]

[00:07:31] Gretchen: Oh, that’s always a hard one. If you manage to figure that out, will you give me some clues? [laughs] I think control freaks are born, not made. [laughs] As an educator, what surprised you most at stepping into a world like this?

[00:07:49] Angie: I’m surprised at how much I love homeschooling. I think there’s a homeschool mindset that it’s been a learning curve for me. I think one of the things that really stuck out to me is when you’re a classroom teacher and lessons don’t go well, it’s always like, “Oh, what did I do wrong?” You’re always looking at, “How can I change things the next time?” I feel like a go-to with homeschoolers, to the point of your seminar next week, is, “Oh, it must be the curriculum. Let’s just change the curriculum.”

That was an interesting mindset shift I’ve seen. I definitely have had my times where I’m like, “Oh, it must be the curriculum.” How can you not let the curriculum be the boss of you? You’re always the boss of the curriculum. I’m a rule follower and I like my checklist. That’s been a learning process for me to say, “This person that I’m working with matters more than what is on today’s agenda.” Those are some things that have been helpful to learn as I educate my own children. I don’t think I could ever go back to a conventional way of learning.

[00:08:58] Gretchen: What are the ages of your children now?

[00:09:01] Angie: I have a 13-year-old, a 10-year-old, and a 7-year-old, all girls.

[00:09:04] Gretchen: Wow, goodness gracious. That’s a handful. That’s the age spread between my three girls, but they’re in their 30s now. [laughs] If we ask them, what would they say they found most fascinating about a hybrid experience?

[00:09:22] Angie: Probably their friends, recess. [chuckles] They like their teachers. They really like their teachers. I think those would be their top three things.

[00:09:34] Gretchen: If I’m listening to you and I’m a mom who says, “Gee, I’d like the homeschool experience, but I don’t think I can do it all alone or solo,” how did you start this? You had conversations with your friends. Give me some insight into where those conversations began. Did you start with the idea or did you start with the curriculum or did you start with a concept?

[00:10:04] Angie: Yes, so Rebecca and I spent a lot of time talking about this. Our daughters would hang out after preschool was over on the playground. We would just talk through all of our options. Rebecca’s really great at looking at things and saying, “There’s got to go be a better way to do things.” [chuckles] I think I was such a product of public school. It felt very hard to walk away from that. We had those conversations.

I think because of the part-time model of preschool, Rebecca was like, “Can we do this through elementary school, like have a part-time model?” Somewhere in there, as we were researching stuff, we found that the hybrid model existed in other states. That was like, “Oh okay, all right,” and then I had to get my mind wrapped around paying tuition. [laughs] It was an additional hurdle for me.

It was more like, “Okay, this model exists.” I know I spent some time reading different hybrid programs, websites. A lot of the ones we saw were either super traditional as far as textbook worksheet kind of thing or they were classical. Those are great for the families who are aligned with that. Like I said, the Waldorf method really resonated with me as far as being holistic and I think not rushing children through childhood.

We were like, “We’re going to be there two days a week.” We still want them to get outside and have recess. Rebecca was familiar with Charlotte Mason’s philosophy because she had been homeschooled. That just felt like bringing those two things together like a part-time model. Then the educational philosophy felt like the two things that really helped move us forward.

Then we knew a lot of people from our church who were interested in something in between or friends who had been homeschooled, but they said, “We want somebody to help us homeschool our kids,” or friends who had gone to Christian school that said it was too expensive. They couldn’t afford that on one income. What’s the in-between? We just knew enough people that were like, “What’s the in-between?” and then seeing that this was a model that existed, having the educational approach.

Then we actually did start as a co-op our first year to test things out. We picked up a couple of families that way. Specifically, one person who was such a spokesperson for us and really like Charlotte Mason’s philosophy. She was inviting people from her church and we knew people from our church. It was just because we knew a small cohort of people. We started pretty small.

I did some of the teaching and a couple of the other moms did teaching and childcare. We did a once-a-week, three-hour co-op for 30 weeks and tested out like, “What does this look like in practice with this each group?” We also told everybody when we started, our plan is to start a hybrid program. That helped us build a base of support. Then the following year, we opened a hybrid program.

[00:13:01] Gretchen: In tandem with that, did you create a nonprofit or did you roll a couple of years before you said, “Oh gee, we need to be a nonprofit”?

[00:13:10] Angie: Rebecca did a really helpful consultation with a CPA, who I think is retiring now, Carol Topp.

[00:13:17] Gretchen: I knew that’s who you were going to say. Carol’s wonderful.

[00:13:20] Angie: The homeschool CPA. That was just really helpful because she outlined what our structure could be. It was LLC. You could be the ministry of a church or you could be a nonprofit. She, I think, outlined what the differences were between those. It felt like when the mission is what you’re really serving and that’s what’s driving you, then a nonprofit is a good organization or organizational structure.

Our church building wasn’t big enough and it wasn’t in the right setting. It’s in the middle of the city. There was no green space. That wasn’t really going to work for us. That could have been another option for us, I think, if the building had been right and if the church had been open to that, but we didn’t talk to them. We went into it knowing we wanted to register as a nonprofit.

[00:14:06] Gretchen: I helped a co-op create a nonprofit status, but that was probably 26 years, 27 years ago. I’m wondering if the process has changed. How long did it take you to get established as a nonprofit?

[00:14:23] Angie: Yes, so in Pennsylvania, there’s like– well, there’s two levels. You have to register with the state and that’s pretty simple. Rebecca did that right away. We had that early on being registered with the state as an incorporation. Then depending on the type of paperwork you want to file, there’s a long form for the IRS. That is based on how much you’re going to make every year. If in your first three years, you’re going to exceed a certain amount, I think it was $50,000 when we started, then you’re supposed to do the long form.

If your revenue is going to be under $50,000 then you can do the short form. We were under that for the first couple of years, but we’re like, “Wow, we could exceed that.” We went with the long form and we did hire a CPA to fill out that paperwork for us because you want to get that right. It was expensive to hire somebody to do that. You get 23 months, I think, to get that paperwork done. We waited our first year and had some funding at that point from tuition to help us pay for that. We didn’t pay for that out of pocket.

[00:15:26] Gretchen: How many children do you have now at the academy?

[00:15:30] Angie: We have 215 students this year.

[00:15:33] Gretchen: Oh, my goodness.

[00:15:34] Angie: We ran on Thursdays and Fridays for our first six years. Then we just had a wait list every year for the last three years and it kept getting bigger. We actually asked our host church three times if we could duplicate our program on a Monday and Tuesday, run the same thing, but with new families. Finally, the third time we asked them, they said yes. That’s part of why our numbers are there is because we’re running kindergarten to eighth grade on Mondays and Tuesdays and then we have kindergarten to 10th grade on Thursdays and Fridays.

[00:16:06] Gretchen: Oh, I see. Okay, so is the Monday-Tuesday cohort different from the Thursday-Friday cohort?

[00:16:13] Angie: Yes, totally different families.

[00:16:15] Gretchen: Boy, that’s a lot of administration. How do you have time to be a mom and a homeschooler on top of all this administration? That’s a lot.

[00:16:26] Angie: I’m home three days a week. [chuckles] Somebody else is running our Monday-Tuesday program. I check in with her and I meet up with her once a month on campus. Yes, it is a balancing act and I think because I was pregnant with my third one and my youngest was going into kindergarten. It was just a different beast. It was a labor of love back then.

Also, I think for some personalities when you’re just home, the domestic life can be a little like, “Oh, more diapers, more dishes, more laundry, more scrubbing the toilet.” I got joy from the planning phase and from researching and learning new stuff. It didn’t feel overwhelming or a burden. We did a lot of the planning. Rebecca and I did a lot of the planning like meeting up, playdates with our kids, and we were able to do it that way.

It really was a passion project for both of us. The kids were small enough that homeschooling didn’t take nearly as long when you have one kindergartner as it does now. The more that my girls have grown and adding in my third one last year, it’s just been challenging. I’m spending more time homeschooling them. I do tend to administrate a little bit every afternoon from home.

I have a one or two-hour work block in the afternoons, which works. It works okay for us because we finish our lessons. They play. We’re not involved in a lot of things. [chuckles] That’s probably one of the things that has fallen by the wayside, both because of, I think, my capacity and just my kids’ interests. We’re not involved in any clubs, any classes, any sports. I probably would struggle if we were doing that.

The afternoon work block is good for me. That leaves my mornings for having a quiet, slow morning, focusing on my kids in the morning through their lessons. I generally don’t work at night. Some people I’ve talked to, that’s when they do that. They wait till the kids are in bed and they set that boundary, but I need my sleep. I usually don’t work at night unless I have a meeting. I’ve tried to put in some boundaries for myself, but it’s an active process because there is the ability to get consumed.

[00:18:57] Gretchen: I think it’s really wonderful though that yourself well enough. A parent who’s saying, “Maybe I might be able to try that,” should look at, “How do you function best before you take this on?” Did parents come to you and say, “Hey, I’d like to see Providence teach these curricula,” or did you and your business partner decide what you were going to teach?

[00:19:24] Angie: Yes, we decided what we were going to teach because of the driving educational philosophy from Charlotte Mason. For better or for worse, I enjoy curriculum. I would spend summers as a teacher working on curriculum planning. I got a lot of joy out of doing that. We could have easily, I think, bought somebody else’s curriculum and implemented it, but I pulled the pieces together based on what I was learning about her method and our unique two to eight at school. Certainly, there would be a less-time intensive way of doing that if you just use somebody else’s already put-together curriculum.

[00:20:03] Gretchen: Then how did you recruit– you say you have teachers who are– do the teachers teach Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday, Friday, or do you have different groups of teachers?

[00:20:14] Angie: Mostly different groups of teachers, which was interesting. I shared that with somebody, Kerry McDonald. I had done a podcast with her. When I told her what that ended up being, she said, “Well, you have teachers who just went part-time and that’s good data too.” Overwhelmingly, it seems to be what we have. A lot of our teachers, at least over half, are also homeschooling parents. This is the community for them that they need and allows them to also work and be on campus with their kids as well. It’s a good fit for some of our teachers who are also homeschooling moms.

[00:20:52] Gretchen: Are your teachers who are on campus, their children are on campus at the same time, or are the children on campus Monday, Tuesday, and they teach Thursday, Friday? I’m trying to get people to understand how you model that or–

[00:21:09] Angie: Yes, families generally are moving as a unit. If the mom’s here is teaching or working, her kids are here on campus that day, and then they’re usually home. Most hybrid models we’ve looked at are doing a Tuesday, Thursday, or maybe Monday, Wednesday, Thursday. We have a unique schedule that was really influenced by our preschool. Early on, I checked in with our teachers and I’m like, “Should we go to this every other day, a week thing that other people are doing?” Our teachers who are teaching here appreciate being able to compartmentalize home life and school. They’re like, “Your focus is your kids’ homeschooling at home,” and then they start to shift gears and they come here.

[00:21:50] Gretchen: Tell us what a day would be like for an elementary student at Providence Hybrid. What would they expect to do in a day?

[00:21:58] Angie: We have a morning time where they’re doing some memory work. They’re learning hymns and scripture and poetry. They’re reading the Bible. They have snack time, they have recess, and then they’ll come back in. You said kindergarten, right, specifically?

[00:22:09] Gretchen: Sure.

[00:22:10] Angie: They come back in for shorter lessons. They do a little handwriting, a little reading, little math. They have extra playtime. They also have rest time. Then they have an afternoon recess and nature study.

[00:22:23] Gretchen: Kindergarten rest time fell by the wayside about 30 years ago, didn’t it? I think it’s so smart of you to include that because you’re meeting the child where they are developmentally.

[00:22:35] Angie: Yes, the days are long for them. The beginning of the year, some of the kids actually fall asleep. By the end of the year, they tend to outgrow it and not need it as much. Sometimes it’s more shushing than anything else.

[laughter]

[00:22:47] Angie: I do think some of them really need that downtime. That’s how my kindergarten experience was. We had a nap time. I fell asleep because my teacher bribed me and we had playtime. I felt like when my daughter was going into kindergarten, I was like, “It doesn’t look like that anymore at all.”

[00:23:03] Gretchen: We’re expecting more and more from children at younger and younger ages. To their detriment, I’m just finishing this book by Jennifer Breheny Wallace. It’s called Never Enough. It’s talking about how we have changed the education system to demand more and more of students at younger and younger ages. I think you’ve been very wise in the way you have developed your curricula. For a fourth or a fifth grader, how many academics are they going to do in that day?

[00:23:40] Angie: We really tried to focus on what we could do well in those days. Some things were just not covering at PHA. They’re just getting grammar and spelling at home. We don’t do a lot of geography. We tried to keep a consistent schedule. That said, there were just decisions we had to say no to doing this at PHA. What can we do really well on our two days?

They are getting science. They’re getting math. They’re getting literature. They’ll do written narrations. We’re not teaching formal composition or anything, but they’re doing little writing. History. Then they’re also doing artist and composer study. They’re also doing a morning time where they’re doing memory work and reading Bible. Then they also get nature study and they also still get two recesses.

[00:24:23] Gretchen: Wow, that’s awesome. That’s amazing. How long is a day? What time do you begin in the morning and what time do you end in an afternoon?

[00:24:32] Angie: A six-hour day, so 9:30 to 3:30.

[00:24:35] Gretchen: Wow, that’s amazing. You’re accomplishing an enormous amount in that period of time. What is the size of a class? How many kids do you have in a class?

[00:24:46] Angie: Usually, 14 or 15. We’ve stuck with trying to keep our classes on the smaller side.

[00:24:52] Gretchen: That’s probably really good because if you’ve got a smaller group of kids, it’s less crowd control and more personal interaction.

[00:25:01] Angie: Yes, it feels like you’re serving homeschool families and their kids are used to getting a lot of individualized attention. You think when that class size starts going up, you’re undoing what families value, I think.

[00:25:14] Gretchen: Right. How are you structuring high school classes then? Are you offering different classes or are you just saying, “This is what we’re going to offer and you have to figure out where to get the rest”?

[00:25:25] Angie: I think we’ve really committed to doing the four classes that would be required for transcript. Again, in two days, there is only so much that you can do. We have an elective class once a week. We started this once-a-month program as well that our high schoolers have access to explore career stuff. We have a fitness component and a practical skills. Otherwise, we’re really doing the core on Thursdays and Fridays and that model is a little bit different. They’re getting math both days of the week and they’re getting foreign language both days. Otherwise, science is once a week. History is once a week. English is once a week. Bible is once a week. They’re getting these courses only once a week.

[00:26:13] Gretchen: Their classes are a little bit more split, but you have a little bit more that you can offer them in the way of content that way as well.

[00:26:21] Angie: Yes. Yes, they’re doing a lot of the reading at home. The teachers are assigning what they should be doing on Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays. It’s almost like a college class in that they’re coming into class on Thursday or Friday ready to review their work and contribute to class and make progress forward that way.

[00:26:39] Gretchen: I like the way you’ve structured that because in a way, it’s an implicit self-exploration but a self-discipline as well. You don’t want to be behind your friends when you show up in class on Thursday. You want to make that work. That’s great. Do you also have 15 high schoolers then or did you make the group a little smaller?

[00:27:01] Angie: Yes, we’re not there yet. [laughs] It’s just been slower to grow. We started with a very small group of students. We started with six kids, but we’re seeing more interest for next year. Then our current seventh graders, it’s a larger class. They’ve started in kindergarten with us. That’s the class that my oldest is in. I think when they get to high school, we’ll have a better sense of like, “Is this really in demand from our families or are we going to lose families to dual enrollment and we have to stop after 10th grade?”

[00:27:34] Gretchen: Dual enrollment is something that’s possible in Pennsylvania because not every state allows that.

[00:27:40] Angie: Yes, it is. You can’t take your full-course load through a college is my understanding, but I think they can take two classes at a community or online. There’s a couple of online schools that are pretty affordable.

[00:27:53] Gretchen: If I’m a parent listening to our conversation and I’m thinking, “Ooh, this is attractive,” what would you tell me to do first?

[00:28:01] Angie: Yes, I guess I would start having conversations with other people, both to see if there’s somebody with energy for the same thing to work with you on it or to see if you can find a little group of people who are interested in the same thing. Yes, I guess I would research your state requirements as far as how you can get organized and keep things legal.

[00:28:26] Gretchen: Angie, there’s a book in this somewhere. Someday, you’re going to have to write a book about your experience.

[00:28:31] Angie: Actually, my co-founder wrote a book. I don’t remember the name of it. I think it might be New School on the Block. If you’re interested in this particular model, there is a growing organization out of Kennesaw State University. It’s the Hybrid Schools Project run by Eric Wearne. They have a conference every year in Georgia, which is where Kennesaw is. That’s open to people. It’s super affordable, I think. That’s a really great place to-

[00:29:02] Gretchen: -do your research.

[00:29:03] Angie: -do research to find out from people who have gone before you and learned the hard way. Dr. Wearne has been doing regional conferences. He did one in Pennsylvania in the fall. I think he’s done one out, I want to think, somewhere in California. You could certainly get on their mailing list and find out about their regional conferences. Yes, there are a lot of people out there doing this kind of thing. There’s another group, the TELA. They have offered funding for people who are educational entrepreneurs. There’s definitely a growing arena out there where you could find your people even if you can’t find them locally yet. There’s stuff on a national level that can be really helpful in maybe not having learned every lesson the hard way.

[00:29:54] Gretchen: Right, absolutely. Angie, this has been such a terrific hour. I really appreciate it. What this gives us the opportunity to do is to share that you don’t have to do it a traditional way to do it very successfully. I just want to thank you for spending this time with me. This has been amazing. I wish Providence Hybrid Academy all the best in the process. Maybe we’ll check back in with you in a year or so and see how you’ve grown.

[00:30:24] Angie: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. I never would have expected to be here, but it’s been such a blessing. Yes, it’s just an exciting thing to say, “This is an option for people.” I’m grateful to be able to share that with your audience.

[00:30:37] Gretchen: Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, everyone, who joined us today. We’ll look forward to coming into your living room again soon. Take care, everyone. Bye-bye.

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