[00:00:00] Sarah Collins: I think that’s the goal of what we’re living with our kids every single day, is that we want them to feel a space where they are loved, where they are accepted, where they feel safe, and also, simultaneously, where we are expecting this growth, we are expecting this change, we are expecting learning, because why else are we educating?

[music]

[00:00:24] Gretchen Roe: Good afternoon, everybody. This is Gretchen Roe, and I really want to welcome you to this episode of The Demme Learning Show. I am so excited to welcome my friend, Sarah Collins. I’m grateful for Steve Demme having introduced us because we have had a precious friendship since then. Man, Sarah teaches me something every time I get the opportunity to hang out with her, and I know she’s going to teach you all a lot today. Sarah, how about you introduce yourself, and we’ll get started.

[00:00:54] Sarah Collins: First of all, thank you so much for having me. I agree. I am very grateful to Steve for his introduction, and then now that we’ve been able to work together so many different times through presentations and doing this here, and also on The OT is In Podcast, where I was lucky enough to host you there. There’s a lot of Gretchen-Sarah out there. It’s good stuff. Good stuff. Yes, my name is Sarah Collins. I’m an occupational therapist. I own and run Homeschool OT, which is where I work with homeschools around the world on making sure that we understand our children so that we can support them in what they need and want to do.

An occupation is not just a job, right? Although so many people are like, “What do you do, Sarah? You’re going to help me find a job?” No. Instead, occupation is how you occupy your time. It’s anything and everything, all day long, every day, from going to bed at night, sleep is an occupation, to then once you wake up, everything you do during the day, from brushing your teeth to learning math, and the play, and everything in between. I really work with families on if your kiddo is struggling, why, and what do we do?

[00:02:14] Gretchen: Sarah, I think it’s important for our audience to understand you really stand in a unique space because instead of working one-on-one with the child, you’re collaborating with the parent so that they can work with their child. That, to me, is really a unique model and inordinately valuable because you give the parents the wherewithal to understand their children more deeply.

[00:02:39] Sarah: Thank you. Yes, you’re right. It is a very unique space. In fact, I don’t know of anyone else doing what I’m doing. A lot of what I do is come alongside of families and occupational therapists. I’m the bridge because oftentimes, OTs don’t understand homeschooling, and so they need to understand our community. I have a class for OTs, and I advocate there. Then I also come alongside the parents who are like, “What on earth did my OT just say to me? Proprioception, what?” Or, “Sarah, explain this standardized test to me so that I can figure this out, and why does it matter within our homeschool?”

Guys, in the perfect world, every OT that you work with would, one, support homeschooling or support your educational choice, but two, have the time to be able to go through everything with you. Unfortunately, with our world of productivity, it’s not that OTs do not want to do so, but oftentimes, they can’t. I am that little bridge.

[00:03:46] Gretchen: That is so terrific. Not only are you that bridge in a quantifiable way, but you also are that bridge in a really encouraging way. When you’re a parent with a child with a learning difference, that can feel like a lonely journey. Sarah, you make it less lonely. That, to me, is really exciting.

[00:04:08] Sarah: Thank you. That is actually one of the pieces that I’m hoping that we’re going to touch on today is the hope that comes along with understanding our children, and both the accepting of who our children are and expecting that who they are now isn’t who they’re always going to be. My husband and I were laughing the other day because my kids brought up our yearbooks. We went to high school together. We’ve been together since we were 14 and 13. My kids brought up our yearbooks. The amount of things that– everyone signed it in the ’90s. That said, like, “Never change.” Then their numbers. I was like, “Could you imagine if I walked back in and went like, ‘Hey, Kelly, I’ve never changed. I’m the same as I was when I was 17. Here I am.'”

[00:04:56] Gretchen: No, thank you. The 17-year-old that I was, I don’t think I liked her very much. I like myself a whole lot better now.

[00:05:05] Sarah: Yes.

[00:05:06] Gretchen: I did get a kick out of the parent who said, “Geez, I wish I– My kids have all graduated. I needed your information when they were still at home.” Hopefully, we’ll be an encouragement, not just for parents, but for grandparents to interact, or parents to interact with their adult children, because that’s a hard journey.

[00:05:26] Sarah: Yes, for sure.

[00:05:28] Gretchen: Sarah, you have some things to share with us today.

[00:05:32] Sarah: One of the biggest things, and what we’re going to do is understand these concepts and also how we can talk about it with our children, because that really matters if our kids understand themselves and then can communicate. That self-awareness can lead to self-advocacy. You can’t advocate without the awareness. Also, if you are trying to advocate without the awareness, you can’t advocate. Both of them. It goes back and forth.

[00:06:00] Gretchen: It’s two sides of the same coin, so you have to have both.

[00:06:03] Sarah: There you go. This is a book that I want to make sure that everyone sees. It’s by Gretchen Rubin, not Gretchen Roe, but Gretchen Rubin called My Life in Five Senses. A lot of what I’m going through this, now granted, she does talk primarily about the big five, what you hear, what you see, what you taste, what you touch, and smell. She talks about those big five. I think it allows you to really focus in on those so that you can observe your own student more. It is one of the only books that I found that is not highly, “Man, I need to sit down, and I need someone to help me interpret this and all these big words, and also to really make me stay awake.” It’s engaging.

[00:06:49] Gretchen: I love her writings because I find them very engaging. I’m delighted that you mentioned one of my favorite authors. That book is sitting up here on my shelf.

[00:06:59] Sarah: Oh, is it? Have you read it?

[00:07:00] Gretchen: I have. I love it. I didn’t know you were going to mention it today, but thanks for that.

[00:07:05] Sarah: Yes, it’s so good. One of the things that she says in here, it’s almost at the end, but I loved it, and it very much makes me think about sensory processing as a whole. She says, “To be Gretchen–” and you could just put yourself in here, Gretchen, “I must both accept myself and expect more from myself. Strive to embrace the realities of my nature while also enlarging my sense of possibility.”

I think that’s the goal of what we’re living with our kids every single day, is that we want them to feel a space where they are loved, where they are accepted, where they feel safe. Also, simultaneously, where we are expecting this growth, we are expecting this change, we are expecting learning, because why else are we educating?

[00:07:50] Gretchen: That’s right.

[00:07:51] Sarah: Here we are. With that, I want us to pause just for a second and think about just these main five senses, even in everyday life of what do you see, hear, smell, taste, and feel. When we can pause to be in that moment, it’s easier to expect that of our kids as well. I always feel so awkward when I do it, but you guys, I don’t know if you notice, but it makes me just stop and calm down for a hot second. Also, it’s where I realize, “Wow, this light above me to make this room brighter is very bright. It’s very overwhelming.”

It allows me to tune into my nervous system as how does that affect me? This is the question that we need to be asking our kids. “Okay, what do you see? What do you hear? Let’s bring you into this moment.” Then how does that affect what you’re doing? Again, as an occupational therapist, I’m always looking at how do you occupy your time? Can you function the way that you want to? Does that light make it so that you can’t? That’s a very simple explanation, but this is where we need to be tuning into our kids and observing with them.

We’ve already mentioned some, the visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, which is the smell, and gustatory, which is your sense of taste. I want to define a few more, your vestibular system. That’s your sense. It’s in here in your inner ear. It’s these little teeny hairs that allows you when you’re moving, that gives your body the awareness of where you are in space. Not in relationship to yourself, but in space. Like, “I’m upright. How’s my strength? How’s my posture here?” It gives you all of that.

When I’m walking around, am I bumping into things? How close or near, or far away from things that you are? If you are needing to reach down for something, it’s what allows you to right yourself. It’s when you’re driving and you turn to look for that siren, how your whole car doesn’t go with you, and cause a giant accident. Just turn your head and come back. This is all part of that vestibular system. The vestibular system requires movement, you guys.

What we are seeing with a more sedentary lifestyle, we are actually seeing kids who have poorer vestibular systems who don’t know where their bodies are in space. Unfortunately, that can affect us throughout our entire lifespan. That can lead to more falls in the future. That can lead to weaker body systems in the future. This is something that now, no matter how old you are, get up and move. Here’s the proprioceptive system. That’s another one. There’s the big three that I want to talk about and make sure that you have the definitions of before we move on to, “All right, why does this matter?”

Proprioception. It’s a little bit different. It still is giving you body awareness, but instead of where you are in space, it’s where your body is in relationship to itself. Are my arms up? Are they down? How heavy is something? My prime example, and those of you who’ve heard me speak before have heard this one often, but it’s the simplest to explain, so it’s where I go for it. If I’m going out front and I go to pick up my Amazon box, it’s just the same size, no matter whether it is a box of toilet paper or my box of cat food, which is 30 pounds. I go to lift it up, and I think it is the cat food, and so I’m bracing myself, but it’s the toilet paper. You throw it in the air.

For a second, you are, whoa, you’re confused. Your body is thrown off. Vice versa. If you think it’s the toilet paper and you go to pick it up, and it’s the 25 pounds, and you’re like, “Whoa.” Again, your core strength. It’s confusing. It takes a minute. Imagine for our kids who don’t have this body awareness, they’re walking around in the state of confusion quite frequently. Proprioception, the other term for that is heavy work, and I’m sure you’ve heard this frequently. “Oh, get busy. Get that heavy work in. Get your heavy work. It’s regulating.” That’s because it gives calming information to our brains of organizing, like, “Where is my body? What is it doing? How do I make adjustments?”

That heavy work, the more that we engage that system, the calmer our nervous system is. My husband always jokes with me because my kids will come in and say something to me, and my answer is always, “Have you been outside, and have you had enough water?” He’s like, “Sarah, that’s all you do?” Yes, that’s it. That’s all that OT is. Go outside and work, and drink a lot of water. If you go outside, if we’re moving, anything that is pushing, pulling, carrying, or crawling, these are going to help to increase that proprioception, which calms the nervous system.

Interoception. We had vestibular system, proprioception, and interoception. Interoception is understanding what’s going on internally. It’s how we know, how do I feel right now? How fast is my heart going? What is going on in my stomach? Am I hungry? Do I have to go to the bathroom? Do I have cramps? Whatever. All of those are in the same spot. It’s hard to be able to interpret them if you do not have a good sense of interoception.

Kiddos who struggle with this are often hungry. They go from zero to angry in two seconds because they’re hungry and they don’t realize it, or who are hard to potty train, or are unaware of their emotions. Not necessarily, I’m angry, but what is that doing in my body? How does what my body is feeling, how does that equate to that term? Interoception, interestingly, and proprioception are very linked. Even what we’re seeing is some genetics, genetically linked. You can recognize that on a day when you are sitting really still, it’s raining outside or whatever, and you’re just laying down on the couch. Then you get up and you’re like, “When’s the last time I ate? When’s the last time that I’ve had something to drink?” You don’t realize it.

Kids who are super into their screens for whatever reason for a long amount of time. Then they get off and they’re hungry again because they haven’t eaten, they haven’t moved, and they didn’t realize that they needed that because they weren’t moving. All of these things go together.

[00:14:49] Gretchen: Help me understand the difference between vestibular function and proprioception because I think I have commingled them in my mind. That a child who does not have good vestibular function is the kid who doesn’t have good balance. When they pick up one foot, they fall into the wall. Their proprioception then is off. What am I missing?

[00:15:18] Sarah: They oftentimes go together. All of these senses, they all then go to the brain for our brain to interpret and to organize. Where I can say, if I’m doing an intense evaluation with a family, I can be like, “All right, we are seeking out vestibular input, or we’re not, or we have poor postural control, which frequently has to do with the vestibular system.” I can really dive in and dig in. That’s what OTs do. If I’m just looking at a kiddo as far as function goes, and I’m trying to figure out, like, “All right, where’s vestibular and where’s proprioception?”

Think about if you are going outside and you have something specific that you want to do. Let’s say you want to climb a tree. The proprioception is going to be how much force do I use to pull up with my arm and my leg? The vestibular system is actually going to be more of, “Once I get there, can I stay, and have I moved my arm enough to grab because it’s where my hand is in space?” Does that make sense? It’s like how much movement do I need versus how much force do I need? Where they are in your body is– the inner ear is your vestibular system.

Proprioception is anywhere through all of our joints, through our skin. It’s what is giving us the awareness of the actual body parts. That’s the difference. To be able to do something functional, you’re having to use all of those senses. Let’s go back to climbing a tree. You’re having to see where it is. You also have to, again, be able to reach for that right spot. That’s our vestibular system. We have to be able to pull. That’s our proprioceptive system. We have to be able to hear. If the branch is cracking, that’s our auditory processing there. Interoceptively, is this safe? Do I feel fear, or do I feel okay as I’m doing this? The tactile system, what do I feel within my hand? They are all coming together for us to be able to do the tasks.

[00:17:35] Gretchen: Without our conscious acknowledgment of that, but when they don’t work together correctly, then someone like you has to come in and say, “This is what’s missing.”

[00:17:48] Sarah: Yes. There we go.

[00:17:50] Gretchen: [crosstalk] Continue on.

[00:17:52] Sarah: This also goes into why does this all matter together? One, we want to be able to do the things that our kids need and want to do. We want them to be able to climb the tree. We want them to be able to play soccer when that’s their desire. We want them to be able to hold their body still to read. We have to be able to do all of these things or process all the sensory information to be able to do these things. Dysregulation is the opposite, is when we cannot do the things that we need and want to do because of our sensory systems.

That can look like a lot of different things. It can look like I don’t know or I’m not even aware of what’s going on around me. It can look like I can’t stand this, covering my ears, or I can’t stand this clothes or my socks or this food, or that smell, that total avoidance. On the reverse side of that, it can be, “I need all of this. Give me all the lights. Give me all the noises. Give me all the movement. I need this.” That’s where it’s been in my house. That’s the familiarity that I have with my son.

There’s also the, this is totally too much, and I’m just shut down. I’m out. I can’t even take in any more information. That’s where we get some of those meltdowns and stuff. Sensory regulation matters because we want our kids to be able to do what they need and want to do. The difference between regulation is integration. That’s what I was talking about earlier, where our brain is having to organize all of this input to help you recognize what does keep you alert and what does help you to calm down. It’s different for every person. It really is, which doesn’t make it easy. It doesn’t make it easy at all.

[00:19:47] Gretchen: No, because I’m thinking about, as you described with your son, he wants all the stimulation. If you’re the parent who doesn’t want all the stimulation, that sets you all up for a loggerheads situation, doesn’t it?

[00:20:02] Sarah: It sure does. That’s why it’s even more important to have this communication of what communication system can we put in place so that I can advocate for myself and you can advocate for yourself, and also that we can have this mutual understanding. Now, obviously, that’s a lot harder when our kiddos are little, but I recognize that self-care has gotten such a consumeristic type of, I don’t know, word or connotation, I guess. When I’m talking about self-care, what I’m talking about with families is that awareness of yourself so that you can– “I’m overwhelmed right now, I need to step away.” That’s helping to preserve your relationship with your child. It’s actually preserving that connection.

That self-awareness is the self-care that I’m talking about, and we’ll mention that a little bit more as we go on here. That is modeling positive behavior. It’s modeling positive reactions that we want our kids to have when they’re grown up. The self-denial actually isn’t. It’s not modeling what we want them to do when they grow up. It’s like a flip of a switch, guys, flip of a switch, for sure. This is one way to communicate about it. I’m super excited to talk about this. This is a picture that came from my book called A Chameleon Tale. Yes.

[00:21:34] Gretchen: I loved this book, by the way. I thought it was terrific. I loved it on so many levels because not only are you teaching children to understand themselves, but you’re giving parents greater insight into understanding their children. That’s not always easy to do.

[00:21:51] Sarah: It’s not. It came because– A really, really good friend of mine, Jackie, who did all these fantastic illustrations that are in this book, I lived in her house when I was going to graduate school. She edited all of my OT papers growing up. Later on, when she had her own children, she was like, “Sarah, where is the book where I can communicate about this with my kids?” There wasn’t one, and so we wrote it together. It has been such a joy. We just found out it’s going to be on Disability Book Week. It’ll be honored on that. I’m super excited about that.

[00:22:30] Gretchen: That’s terrific. We should tell our audience that it’s called A Chameleon Tale. Sarah and Jackie have written and illustrated this. They’ve taken what you’ve already seen can be somewhat of a complex understanding and made it thoroughly understandable for kids and parents together.

[00:22:53] Sarah: Thank you. I hope so. That is the whole goal. What we did was really talk about the outward signs of the inward information. I was talking about that interoception. If we could, “Man, I don’t feel good right now.” If our whole body changed, it would be a lot more helpful.

[00:23:14] Gretchen: Would really be helpful, wouldn’t it?

[00:23:17] Sarah: Chameleons, we had them do that. Actually, one of the kiddos that I read to recently, he was like, “Did you know that when a chameleon is blue that they’re actually sad?” I was like, “How do you know that?” [laughs] “Okay, I’ll take it.” He’s like, “You got it right, Mrs. Collins. Excellent. I’m glad.” [chuckles]

[00:23:38] Gretchen: That’s a little glimmer of God in the process of the illustration. [laughs]

[00:23:44] Sarah: “All right, little heaven, you and the chameleons, they’re right here.” I love it. I’m glad he was. The premise is that these chameleons, the gold is when their bodies are regulated, and they’re all on their way to a restaurant. They’re leaving their home, which is something that we ask our kids to do all the time, and they’re on their way somewhere. They are both reacting in different ways. How can we be able to eat at this restaurant, eat these nice bugs, and being regulated as we get there, while we are there? What are some strategies? How do we talk about it? Thankfully, they don’t have to be like, “Hey, Mom, this is how I–” because their bodies change, and she can say how she notices.

To go along with that, the language that we used was declarative language. That’s my second point here that I want to chat about, is what exactly is declarative language and how can we communicate with our kids about it? Basically, what we’re doing when we’re sharing declarative language is that we are trying to share our thoughts, our observations. I notice, or I see, or I wonder. “I notice that your shoulders are up really high. What’s going on there?” “I notice that you are looking around the room, and it’s taking a long time to get through that math.” It is very different than, “Pay attention to your math, or get this done.”

Instead, it’s inviting our kids to join us, and it’s inviting us to join our kids to think about what I am saying and then reflect, and we can be on the same team. In the book, Mama does that often. She’s like, “I notice that you are– whatever, skittering all over.” I don’t remember off the top of my– Maybe I should have this book memorized by now, but I don’t. [laughs] “I notice that you’re skittering all around, or I notice that your color is changing. Before, we’ve tried this. How is that going to work?”

The number of times that parents come to me and they say, “I know that my kid needs to go outside,” or, “I know that my child needs to jump around, but when in that moment, he refuses to do so.” This happens a lot because when you’re heightened– If your nervous system is already on high alert, and then someone’s telling you something to do, your immediate answer is, “Not a chance.”

[00:26:23] Gretchen: No. [laughs]

[00:26:24] Sarah: No.

[00:26:25] Gretchen: I’m going to resist that, even if it’s in my best interest.

[00:26:30] Sarah: Especially when they know– Not especially when they know, but when they do know that it has worked in the past, in that moment, it’s not going to help. Instead, if what we could say is, “I’m recognizing that that chair looks uncomfortable.” I’m just making something up right now, mainly because this chair I’m sitting in isn’t comfortable. “I’m recognizing that you’re wiggling around, Sarah. What else could we do, or how can we solve that?” It’s the same thing. In our house, we have not a rule, but a different phrase that we use when I’ve got a kiddo who’s like, “I can’t do this.” “We can’t do it this way. We can’t do it this way right now.”

What that does is allow us to be like, “Here’s the problem. I can’t do it. What’s the solution? I can’t do it this way. Let’s come up with some other things. Do I need to change the time of day? Do I need to change how you’re sitting? Do I need to change how many math problems are on the paper?” Whatever. There are so many ways that I can solve this problem, but we have to be willing to open communication about it. That can start with us, with this declarative language. The book gives lots of examples about that there.

Oh, look at that. I forgot I did give myself some cues of what I did say. Here’s one. Mama’s like, “In five minutes, we will feel the rough bark on our feet as we climb up to the cafe and taste that salty bug.” In this case, she’s declaring some expectations of what’s probably going to happen, which can help us to prepare our sensory systems. She also says, “I wonder if chomping this bug will be enjoyable.” I’m saying it like a question in that, like where you’re wondering or you’re noticing, which I don’t know if you’ve done any Andrew Pudewa stuff or looking at essentials, and you’re like, “Wait, that is interrogative, Sarah. That is not declarative, so it cannot be declarative language.”

However, because of the way that she’s phrasing it, where she’s like, “I wonder if chomping this bug will be enjoyable,” or, “I noticed that it has been in the past.” They’re kind of the same thing, where we are looking and trying to have our kids think internally based on what we’re saying. It’s that cue there. Why this helps, we talked about a little already, it reduces that demand and that perceived threat, and promotes this problem-solving. It helps us to look internally, and then we’re on the same team, which is going to help us to model this collaboration and empathy.

There are lots of books about this if you want to read more. Linda Murphy wrote a book that’s called– she says declarative language is the glue for social connection. Her book is called The Declarative Language Handbook. It’s great. Bobbi Cook wrote Compassionate Communication, and she talks about how it builds trust. I did listen– When I was really trying to gear into how I was going to write this book, I did listen to several different podcasts and stuff from the neurodivergent community.

[00:29:38] Gretchen: Oh, I love the community. I’ve learned so much from them.

[00:29:42] Sarah: So good. If we’re talking to a specific community, then I want to make sure that I’m respectful, and also that I’m listening to perspectives and trying to make sure that this is actually true. What I heard there is that, basically, if I’m going to come into a room with my son, where I’ve been reacting before this, where I’m like, “Oh my gosh, there’s Legos everywhere, clean them up.” Now I walk into the room, and I’m like, “I notice that there’s Legos all over the floor.” My son would look at me and be like, “What have you been listening to, Mom?” Or like, “What strategy have you learned right now?”

That can be really manipulative, that we’re not trying to use this language to get our kids to do something, but instead we’re trying to open up this collaboration. It might take some time. It also might take some practice. If my son was looking at me like that, and I’d be like, “You know what, you’re right,” because I want to be able to come at things with you where I’m helping you to see what I see, and then we can come up with a solution together. Be open, be authentic, be a collaborative team.

[00:31:03] Gretchen: I love it.

[00:31:04] Sarah: That’s really what I wanted to lay out there and make sure that people can understand a little bit about sensory processing, one of the ways we can communicate about it.

[00:31:15] Gretchen: Sarah, you’ve given us some great insight, but boy, there’s so much more to explore here. Tell us a little bit about the OT is In, because I love this podcast. I spend a lot of time with you, but you don’t know it.

[00:31:30] Sarah: Oh, thank you.

[00:31:32] Gretchen: Tell us a little bit about that because I think this will be a great resource for parents as well.

[00:31:38] Sarah: The OT is In comes out every single Thursday. I tend to go through sequences of sensory processing, executive functioning. I rotate through handwriting, through literacy, because those are the occupations. Sometimes it’s the why, and sometimes it’s like, “Give me some information.” Then sometimes it’s an application to something that we’re actually needing to do. I’ll look at all of them. Oftentimes, I’m inviting guests. Sometimes you just hear from me, depending on what the topic is. I love doing it. I love it. I love it.

I love it because I think so much of social media when we are at these little quick glimpses, people can’t hear my heart. I hope that you do within the OT is In where you can hear I have such a passion for you as parents to understand your children, to accept your children, but then also be able to expect from your children, and that they can do the same thing with you. That is the whole goal within the OT is In. Actually, through all of homeschool OT is really, I fully believe that all of our kiddos are created purposely, they’re God’s handiwork. They all have different things that He has prepared in advance for them to do. It’s not the same for everybody what we’re supposed to be doing. It’s our job to come alongside of them and be able to support them in that path.

[00:33:06] Gretchen: Absolutely. Every child is different. Every parent is different. What’s interesting to me, and I didn’t attend to this until I was well into multiple kids, is every interaction– you can have the same interaction, but with two different children, it’s going to be different.

[00:33:26] Gretchen: Sometimes that was exhausting as a parent when you had multiple kids coming at you. My husband used to describe it as a WWE match where we didn’t get to tag out.

[00:33:38] Sarah: Yes, I can see that.

[00:33:40] Gretchen: Sometimes it feels that way. The days can be long, but boy, the years pass really quickly. They really do.

[00:33:47] Sarah: This work that you’re putting in when they’re younger, then allows– Gosh, if I can just express to you the beauty of watching my son do what he’s doing right now and my daughter getting ready to go to college. These things, because we’ve been working for so long, there’s just such an excitement and anticipation of, gosh, you’re doing it, guys. You’re doing it. It’s beautiful.

[00:34:07] Gretchen: Yes, it’s so exciting. Now, I have no more teenagers in my house as of July of this past year. It feels so weird, but I love stepping into this space too, because it’s fascinating to watch each of your children grow into what you hope and pray they will become. Sarah, I can’t believe we’re at the top of the hour. What are your closing words for our families today? I hate the fact that this hour is ending. I love spending time with you.

[00:34:37] Sarah: Thank you. I do too. I really want to say I hope you hope, but I hope that you have found some hope, some reason, and some of the why, but how that underlying why can lead to more hope in your future. Again, this accept and the expect, guys, we can do them together, and that’s what we should be doing.

[00:35:00] Gretchen: I love what you said about accepting, but then expecting. Often, I encounter parents who are willing to acknowledge the acceptance piece, but then they don’t want to take it that next step for the expectation piece. I love the fact that you have both sides of that coin, too.

[00:35:23] Sarah: Yes, absolutely.

[00:35:24] Gretchen: Folks, we will make sure that you have resources for everything from A Chameleon Tale, to Sarah’s website, to her podcast in the show notes. Thank you all for trusting us to come into your living rooms today. I hope you see the value that I have been waiting for you to see in this particular conversation because I knew Sarah was going to deliver in spades, and of course, she did.

[00:35:48] Sarah: Thank you, thank you.

[00:35:48] Gretchen: Sarah, thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it, and I look forward to your joining me again sometime soon. I’ll hatch up something so we can have another conversation.

[00:35:56] Sarah: We’ll figure it out. I love it.

[00:35:57] Gretchen: We’ll figure it out. Take care, everyone. Have a wonderful afternoon.

[00:36:01] Sarah: Have a great day. Thank you.

[00:36:01] Gretchen: Bye-bye.

[00:36:04] Voice-Over: Thanks again for joining us. We’re glad to be a part of your educational community. You can help us grow our community even more by rating, reviewing, and subscribing to the show wherever you may be hearing this. Don’t forget that you can access the show notes and watch a recording at Demmelearning.com/show or on our YouTube channel. We’ll see you again next time. Until then, keep building strong foundations for lifelong learning.

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